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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Alleged Australian war crimes in Afghanistan investigated |  |
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The dehumanising effects of war:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jun/10/australian-sas-under-scrutiny-after-allegations-unarmed-afghan-men-killed
| Quote: | The Sun-Herald also reported on a separate incident in 2009 in which an SAS regiment trooper, who was on his first mission, was pressured to execute an unarmed elderly detainee, as part of a “blooding” ritual.
On the same mission in 2009, the Herald said, one SAS soldier referred to as Leonidis had pushed a bound prisoner off a small cliff, severely injuring his face in the fall. As he lay there, Leonidis was part of a decision to “get him out of his misery” by machine-gunning him.
His prosthetic leg was souvenired and used as a drinking vessel at SAS headquarters in Perth, the Fairfax paper said. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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I would like to see a some proof of this story. My dealings with the SASR tell me this is in all likelihood utter bullshit. Sounds like the sort of shit quoted by blokes who live here who went straight from recruit training to the SASR. It does not happen.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This is a quite interesting take on people fighting in a war zone.
https://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/todd-sampsons-body-hack
Todd Sampson spent time with the Iraqui armed forces during the battle for Mosul in April last year. Gives some insight into the mental processes of people fighting.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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If that is a reasonably comprehensive account of the relevant circumstances then it is a murder. I’m not sure it is a war crime as we usually use (or think of) that term.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Didn't learn from Vietnam. No one knew who the enemy was then and they don't now. Different time, different Police action. When the witnesses are the enemy how clear is the truth? |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Why should we play by Law when the Opponent Dosen't?
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I am Da Man |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Why should we play by Law when the Opponent Dosen't? |
Because we claim to have the moral high ground. If we sink to their level, we're as bad as them.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ true. Equally, we should not expect those who go into combat zones on our behalf to observe the niceties of a garden party. There are rules of engagement, written by soldiers who understand the deforming stress of combat and the difficulties of fighting an enemy who plays by no rules of war. I am wary of civilians alone judging these.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I agree. Sometimes in war you need to cross lines that civilians would shudder at, but under those incredible stresses it's just part of what happens.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | ^ true. Equally, we should not expect those who go into combat zones on our behalf to observe the niceties of a garden party. There are rules of engagement, written by soldiers who understand the deforming stress of combat and the difficulties of fighting an enemy who plays by no rules of war. I am wary of civilians alone judging these. |
It doesn’t take a military professional to know that Abu Ghraib was wrong, though (nor to judge how wrong it was). Of course soldiers sometimes snap as a result of (for civilians) often unimaginable conditions that they endure and do terrible things, and it’s possible that those in the military would have better insight into the psychology of those crimes than we do. But, equally, let’s not outsource our sense of right and wrong actions to others, or hide behind appeals to authority. There’s a balance between letting the army keep its own house in order and having some kind of external accountability procedures, and, if anything, that balance seems to be shifted much too far in the former direction – indeed, the mere fact that news of these incidents has taken years to come out is a strong indicator of that.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
I agree. Sometimes in war you need to cross lines that civilians would shudder at, but under those incredible stresses it's just part of what happens. |
Yep plus you need the whole story, from both parties, and if possible, a third unrelated source!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ civilian and military oversight are both necessary. But combat soldiers should be judged mostly by those who understand the pressure under which they operate.
Abu Ghraib was, if anything, more a product of the political climate set by civilians (notably the US Dept of Justice operating under political direction) than it was of senior military policy.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Why should we play by Law when the Opponent Dosen't? |
In the Fairfax stories, the alleged violations were not actually against individuals who should be regarded as "the opponent". |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What if it didn't happen? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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