Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Time to Reflect on our Recruiting Gambles

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:10 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Millane42 wrote:
Nathan Freeman pick 10 instead of Patrick Cripps Pick 13 (noting Sheed at 11 was always going to WC)

Shocked

We get a chance to re-enact this in the mid-year draft, too. Shocked
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:31 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies2016 wrote:
Let’s keep the Beams trade simple.
Pies gained - Beams, pick 41, pick 44
Lions gained - pick 18 ( 2018 FIRST ROUND ) pick 56 and our 2019 FIRST ROUNDER
Nothing more, nothing less. People seem to think that because we picked up Quaynor in the first round, we got a free hit. Quaynor was a bargain by way of an accumulation of late picks for points, some of which came from the Beams trade )
By example, had we not traded for Beams, we could have still got Quaynor, Kelly AND kept our 2018 first rounder ( presumably for either Stocker or Collier - Dawkins who were still there ) And wait there’s more, we could have still have our 2019 first round pick had we not traded for Beams.
This could have easily be done by trading out our future second and third round picks for the 2018 points that were needed ( particularly with Kelly going a bit later than expected )
So for me given the choice of Beams or the other above outcome, I would have kept our two first rounders intact.
However, I get the quick fix and how people find it easier to see an immediate return than the speculation and development that comes with a high draft pick.
Beams is 30 next year, has already missed two of a possible nine games this year and doesn’t have a lot of good footy left in him.
I would keep the two early draft picks every time over a 30 year old who is prone to missing games.
F W I W, I’m ok with Treloar.


i gotta call you on that. even though the second and third rounder might net the same points, everyone with a brain bigger than a peanut knows that the first round pick is more valuable in a trade. Not sure we would have got the Beams pick done with the second and third rounder.

But even if we had of used the second and third round pick, the result would have been the same, all points gone and no extra pick. That is why people correctly state that giving up the first rounder wasn't giving up anything and so we lost nothing.

The first rounder in 2020 isnt going to help us in 2019, 2021 and 2022. I think we owe it to ourselves to see if we can win one or two flags in that three year period. Beams was a top 10 calibre midfielder when traded. And while i take your point that he has a lot of miles in the legs and is a little injury prone, like Clancy of the Overflow said when asked of the possible trade -

"I think we ought to get him " he said, "I'll warrant he'll be with us when he's wanted in the end!!"

_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk .......
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:36 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies2016 wrote:
Boogie Knights wrote:
^^^ The premiership window opened with our rise to grand finalists last season. Getting Beams back removes the flyscreen enabling the Magpie to swoop through unimpeded.

Waiting several years for a couple of late first rounders that as we can see by the list of mid season draft hopefuls, are no sure thing, does not fit that window.

There is merit to both avenues, but when the 2019 premiership cup is held aloft, only one of them will seem meritorious...


B K, I can’t wait to be proven wrong. Nothing would give me more joy.
I’m not against trading for premiership tilt, I just think we paid overs.

My main concern is more about the evenness of the competition rather than Beams unquestioned talent.
We haven’t had the same team appear more than once in the last three G Fs.
There is a lot that needs to go right to play in a GF, let alone win one.
Beams probably helps us for three years to win a GF.
I just wish he was five years younger. Then I would be ok with the trade.


if Beams was 5 years younger, we would likely have had to give up De Goey, Crisp and Greenwood! Sound familiar?

_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk .......
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 7:32 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Recruiting going forward and our salary cap has a 5 yr extension for Tay
and 3 yr extension for Flip to be added —they have been offered these

_________________
I'm not arguing--just explaining why i am right
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
piedys Taurus

Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!


Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003

PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Millane42 wrote:
Nathan Freeman pick 10 instead of Patrick Cripps Pick 13 (noting Sheed at 11 was always going to WC)

Shocked


Nope, I'm not over it either. Lost the 2018 flag right there, missing Crippa.

_________________
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:55 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at our list, we obviously have deliberately looked to bring in experienced players. After Pendles and Sidey, the most-experienced "home grown" player on our list is Ben Reid (145 games). Varcoe (211), Mayne (202), Beams (175), Howe (171) and Roughead (147) all sit in that gap. So does Treloar (148), although at the time he was selected for potential star quality, rather than because of his experience.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:12 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

E wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
Boogie Knights wrote:
^^^ The premiership window opened with our rise to grand finalists last season. Getting Beams back removes the flyscreen enabling the Magpie to swoop through unimpeded.

Waiting several years for a couple of late first rounders that as we can see by the list of mid season draft hopefuls, are no sure thing, does not fit that window.

There is merit to both avenues, but when the 2019 premiership cup is held aloft, only one of them will seem meritorious...


B K, I can’t wait to be proven wrong. Nothing would give me more joy.
I’m not against trading for premiership tilt, I just think we paid overs.

My main concern is more about the evenness of the competition rather than Beams unquestioned talent.
We haven’t had the same team appear more than once in the last three G Fs.
There is a lot that needs to go right to play in a GF, let alone win one.
Beams probably helps us for three years to win a GF.
I just wish he was five years younger. Then I would be ok with the trade.


if Beams was 5 years younger, we would likely have had to give up De Goey, Crisp and Greenwood! Sound familiar?


E, I try not to get caught up in what if’s and semantics when it comes to sport.
I go back to the Beams trade and I need to call out people who say we didn’t give up two first rounders. The Beams trade is black and white and not debatable. At the time we forfeited both our 2018 and 2019 first rounders to secure both Beams and a couple additional later picks from the Lions. The fact that we were still able to secure a player in the first round as a beneficiary of the academy points system ( courtesy of those Lions picks ) is nothing more than a bi product of the Beams trade.

Now we can enter into the opinion piece, where in my opinion we have paid overs for a very good 29 year old player who doesn’t have a great injury profile.
Of course I understand why we did it. We correctly see ourselves as a chance to go all the way and he improves our chances to do exactly that )
I also agree with others when they say it can only be measured as a success if he is part of our next premiership. If not, then we may have also missed out on the next Cripps or Fyfe ( but then that would be me resorting back to “ what if or maybes ; )


Last edited by Pies2016 on Tue May 21, 2019 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:17 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at his stats, so far this season, what exactly does he improve?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:18 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
Looking at his stats, so far this season, what exactly does he improve?


Our chances of missing out on the next Cripps or Fyfe ☺️
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
LaurieHolden Aquarius

Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica


Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park

PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 2:24 pm
Post subject: Great article worth a read, irrespective of your code / teamReply with quote

For those that enjoy a well written article I’ll refer you to the following.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/magazine/soccer-data-liverpool.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

I’m somewhat disheartened by the lack of journalistic integrity at the best of times, mainly due to the Murdoch press. We just don’t see well researched / informed articles which cut through to be instantly readable and, if it is done well, makes you want to read on and provoke informed discussion.
Editors have shifted from articles that in the past insisted on language which was informative, specific, emphatic and concise that engaged a reader.
News in its current format are grabs via tabloid style 24 hour news cycles. Pretty hard to form an opinion on that tripe.

But I digress. I can draw some parallels from the article that may well reflect our own growth post the Malthouse / Buckley handover.

“In preparation for the Champions League semi-final, he appeared to focus on how the club’s unusually quick defenders could pressure Barcelona’s forwards, intercepting passes and trying to convert them into instant counterattacks”

We need to inject pace and accuracy off the Half-Back Flank, akin to a 2020 version of Suckling, or Johannisen type. Nathan Wilson from Freo, would have been a good get before he crossed from GWS last year. Someone with experience in that role is exactly what we need for a definitive flag tilt. We’ve never filled the void left by Lumumba, Heath Shaw and Seedsman although we did pick up Adams & Howe.
IQ is a pup and learning the system.
Until the draft proper, our mid-season pick John Noble, might fill a void on the pace front since the demise of Freeman and then Murray. If reports ring true that as a player whom offers dash coupled with an above average field kick, he might slot into the HBF or wing.

"That July, Liverpool paid Roma about $41 million for Salah. Graham’s data suggested that Salah would pair especially well with Firmino, another of Liverpool’s strikers, who creates more expected goals from his passes than nearly anyone else in his position"

No co-incidence the Pies achilles heel has been converted shots on goal (4th in league for behinds) and pace off the HBF / precision passing. We’re 6th on the alternate ladder for quarters won. Improve our goal-kicking accuracy by 10% and we’d be top, as we’d have been close to rolling the Cats in Round 1 by half time post kicking 4.9 to their 3.4 at the main break. Lions Round 5 was another where we were 8.9 at the main break then again against Port Round 7, 8.12 our most woeful output apart from 11.8 in the 2nd half of Round 9 against the Saints.
Sydney another where with 5.10, we allowed a side to get back into the game.
On the goal assist, while his aerial game has been gelded, Jamie Elliott’s Goal Assist average at 1.29 per game is top 10 in the league. Jaidyn Stephenson at 1.10 per game sits in the top 20.
Even Ben Reid has 1 per game, an important factor when weighing up the Cox vs Reid debate.

"Another acquisition may have been even more important. Soon after arriving at Liverpool, Graham was asked to research a left winger at Inter Milan, Philippe Coutinho. His data strongly endorsed Coutinho. Liverpool bought Coutinho’s rights for about $16 million. Over the next five years, Coutinho’s play contributed to Liverpool’s revival. But his most important contribution was to accrue value. Last year, Barcelona paid Liverpool about $170 million for Coutinho. Soon after, Liverpool spent more than $200 million on three new players: Alisson Becker, the goalkeeper; the midfielder Fabinho; and the fullback Virgil van Dijk. All became crucial contributors this season. These were known commodities, and none came at a bargain price. But without the profit made by selling Coutinho, Henry assured me, those players would not have been acquired"

I believe we’ve been through that phase from 2012-2015. The 2014/2015 trade period may well be our most complex and important.
First the clean-out. Exit Beams, Brown, Fasolo, Lumumba, Seedsman, Shaw, Thomas, Williams & Wellingham.
In 2014 Beams was the closest thing we had to creating material trade value akin to the above. Without rehashing the 2014/15 draft in detail, 2014 we received Picks 5 and 25 (Bris) to secure Jack Crisp, Travis Varcoe & Levi Greenwood, Aish and Howe. Via the draft in came JDG (5), Moore (9), Maynard (30),

And so it went on but targeted trading and subsequent picks over the 2014/15 provided the nucleus from which our current side was born. Hopefully the AFL press can pen something similar at the end of 2019 that tells of a bigger story behind the scenes…

_________________
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:57 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that LH. It's a great article, and certainly there are some parallels with Collingwood's recruiting.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Uncle Jack Virgo



Joined: 17 Apr 2019
Location: Canberra

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 7:42 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

From LH's quote above- had trouble partial quoting,

"We’re 6th on the alternate ladder for quarters won. Improve our goal-kicking accuracy by 10% and we’d be top, as we’d have been close to rolling the Cats in Round 1 by half time post kicking 4.9 to their 3.4 at the main break. Lions Round 5 was another where we were 8.9 at the main break then again against Port Round 7, 8.12 our most woeful output apart from 11.8 in the 2nd half of Round 9 against the Saints. Sydney another where with 5.10, we allowed a side to get back into the game."


Such an important point. How many games in the last month or so could have been over by half or three quarter time if we had kicked straight and sucked the full potential out of the time when we are dominating the play? It''s rare to dominate for four quarters, and it''s so disheartening to not take full advantage when the flow is with you. Must be a killer for a backman seeing their work go to waste up forward
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:20 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

One recruiting was Wells and Bucks on AFL fears Daniel may have played his last game of his career—15 games in 4 seasons

Bucks acknowledged he had some ongoing injury concerns when recruited but
club felt they could manage it and get games from the man—not what was wanted but recruiting older players more of a risk

_________________
I'm not arguing--just explaining why i am right
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:21 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

One recruiting was Wells and Bucks on AFL fears Daniel may have played his last game of his career—15 games in 4 seasons

Bucks acknowledged he had some ongoing injury concerns when recruited but
club felt they could manage it and get games from the man—not what was wanted but recruiting older players more of a risk

_________________
I'm not arguing--just explaining why i am right
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
BazBoy 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 10:21 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

One recruiting was Wells and Bucks on AFL fears Daniel may have played his last game of his career—15 games in 4 seasons

Bucks acknowledged he had some ongoing injury concerns when recruited but
club felt they could manage it and get games from the man—not what was wanted but recruiting older players more of a risk

_________________
I'm not arguing--just explaining why i am right
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT + 11 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group