Cricket's 3 best batsmen

[Donny]

The Sultan opened this thread with:

"There are 3 standout batsman in the world today: Hayden, Lara & Tendulkar. I think you could mount a very strong argument for all of them being number 1"

The pertinent words there are "in the world today" Presumably that refers to now and the recent past, not 10 years ago.

I have been addressing the opening scenario from SoS and others who continue to place Tendulkar ahead of Ponting and Dravid.

I have said:

"Sure, Tendulkar is a very fine batsman and few looks better than Lara, on his day, but let's get real. 3 standout batsmen in the world today and one of them isn't Ponting !??"

and:

"Lara, Ponting, Sach, Martyn, Dravid, etc. are all very stylish batsmen with averages in the fifties and then there's Gilchrist and Hayden with better averages than all of them"

and:

"Sach simply hasn't even had an innings over 100 in his last 12. That's why I must question why people still speak in terms of him being 'the best' when someone like Ponting has 5 centuries in that time and two of them doubles." You can now make that 6 and 3.

In answer to one poster who wrote it's unfair of me to quote Ponting's stats when Tendulkar was having a slump, I quoted ST's best year:

Batsman - Team - Year - Tests - Inns - N.O. - Runs - Ave. - Centuries

RT Ponting - (Aus) - 2003 - 11 - 18 - 3 - 1503 - 257 - 100.2 - 6

SR Tendulkar (Ind) - 2002 - 16 - 26 - 1 - 1392 - 193 - 55.68 - 4

The yawning difference was ignored.

After pointing out what one Indian cricket writer wrote - "brought to light one of Indian cricket's most worrying frailties – the obsession with individual landmarks" - I was accused of insulting one of the game's best players and stooping to new lows to try and tarnish the name of Tendulkar.

So I repeat: In any case, who bloody cares who's considered the best at anything ? I simply injected a bit of rationale into the discussion and for that I get insulted, told to stick a sock in it and even my good mate, Charlie Ciconte, reckons I must hate Sachin.

And if anyone's even slightly interested in my top 3 batsmen in the world today, I can't separate Ponting, Dravid and Hayden. On the next line I'd have Lara, Kirsten and Kallis and it's hard for me to leave Gilly out of that 6 but he's in a bit of a trough lately.

[JLC]

Kirsten is garbage. Looks good against ordinary opposition but McGrath would sort him out quick smart. Kirsten has been dropped a few times or retired then made a comeback and is now a middle order batsman as opposed to an opener??

jlc

[couragous cloke]

Donny... even u should know that "stats" dont always tell the true story. I think Sultan Is dead right..

[Mr Pieman]

This has been a very interesting 5 page read of solid debate.

We can come up with many batsmen that fit the mould of the 3 best batsmen in the world today based on permutations and combinations of statistically based facts.

However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter how their assessment is based.

I'd like to put a 'spin' on things and find out everyone's opinion on the 3 worst batsmen in the world today!

Donny may like to provide his statistically based opinion using all No. 11 batsmen (I assume he considers the No. 11 batsman as the worst in the side) and the rest of us can have our judgemental opinions.

[Donny]

Lol. Good one, Mr Pieman.

I'm tempted to say: Stuart MacGill, MacGilla and MacGill.

[Donny]

OK. "Kirsten is garbage" deserves a reply.

Last 19 innings in Tests:

150, 160, 55, 11, 56, 19, 44, 1, 108, 130, 60, 90, 29, 53, 46, 54, 118, 137 and 16

So they weren't hit against McGrath/Warne/Gillespie. What should he do ? Sit out of cricket until they play Australia again ?

[JLC]

Hey Donny you should go check out the South African cricket website. They have category A, B & C. Guess which one Kirsten falls in.......lol

The answer is none as he doesnt have a category.......lol

150 = Bangladesh
160 = Bangladesh

The other scores were against England Sri Lanka and Pakistan. You are right they are not bad scores for an ageing player.

His average against Australia is a modest 34 runs

Kirsten fits the Sth African mould perfectly. They look great against most other countries but when they come up against Australia they crumble.

jlc

[commonwombat]

May I enter a Sth African perspective on Kirsten ???

A great batsman??? By no means. A very good efficient blue collar worker?? Thats him.

He is considerably less talented than his older Peter, who was past his best when Sth Africa re-entered Test cricket. Gary Kirsten was not an opener before he made his intl debut, at that time batting at 3 for Western Province.

He was shoe-horned into the job when flown in as a replacement on the 93-94 tour of Aus due to injuries to Wessels and inconsistency in form with Andrew Hudson. To his credit, he has knuckled down and his record speaks eloquently enough. With the emergence of younger talent, he has moved lower down in the past year or so.

Over his career, he has only been dropped a couple of times and has spent no extended periods on the outer. Not sure where you've got the piece about retirements, JLC. Have you confused him with Culinan or Rhodes?

Against Aus, he has not been as productive as against others and McGrath has given him strife. An utter failure?? Seem to remember a couple of tons here and there, certainly not a Cullinan - Warne sort of relationship. Donny may have the stats.

A super talent? No. A legend? No. Garbage?? Get real.

[JLC]

The topic was the worlds 3 best batsman.

To even mention Kirstens name in this topic is embarrassing. When comparing Kirsten to Tendulkar, Lara, Dravid and the other QUALITY batsman in the world then yes imo he is garbage. In his prime he was ok but he is in the twighlight of his career. If South Africa had a bit more batting depth i doubt he would even be in the team.

Oh and here is a bit about him retiring. Gary Kirsten postpones retirement SOURCE: http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/03/spt12.htm

LONDON, Sept 2: South Africa batsman Gary Kirsten has shelved talk of international retirement and insisted that Thursday's series climax against England here at The Oval would not be his last Test.

Before the series began the 35-year-old Kirsten did say this would be his last international campaign. But, with the twin targets of 20 Test hundreds and becoming the first South African to play 100 Tests in his sights, the gritty left-hander has decided to carry on although he insisted his motivation for continuing was not purely statistical.

"I didn't want to leave with the possibility of any regrets, the thought that maybe I could have played for another four or five months and reached 100 Tests," Kirsten told the BBC on Tuesday.

"Another famous milestone is 20 hundreds, but those targets are not the only reason I'm carrying on."

"I've thoroughly enjoyed this tour," Kirsten added. "Being in good form helps, but the set-up is tremendous and the guys have worked superbly together.

"I just couldn't help thinking how nice it would be to be a part of it all for a bit longer. I still feel physically good, although I know I'm pushing time. But as long as I'm worth my place and the guys still want me, I'll be here for a couple more matches."

Kirsten's painstaking innings of 130 and 60 set up South Africa's 191-run, fourth Test win against England at Headingley last month.

That left South Africa an unbeatable 2-1 up in the five-match contest and on the verge of a first series win in England since 1965.

Afterwards, Western Province run machine Kirsten, who is already South Africa's most-capped player having appeared in 92 Tests, told reporters: "I did say this would be my last summer of international cricket.

"But the guys have put some heat on me," added Kirsten, who retired from one-day internationals following hosts South Africa first round World Cup exit earlier this year.

If Kirsten were to play in every Test between now and the climax of South Africa's forthcoming home series against the West Indies at Centurion in January he would have played in exactly 100 Tests.

At Headingley, Kirsten did say he would go back to South Africa and speak to his six-month pregnant wife before making a final decision.

But one player who will be retiring from international cricket at The Oval is England's 40-year-old wicket-keeper batsman Alec Stewart.

Surrey stalwart Stewart, appearing on his home ground, is England's most capped player and will be playing in his 133rd Test.-AFP


jlc

[Donny]

Kirsten batted as opener for his first 84 Tests. He only moved to first drop when Smith arrived on the scene.

Last night's innings was only his 4th. in the middle order. He certainly wasn't demoted. They are blooding Rudolph at #3.

Overall, he's one of the two batsman (Waugh) to have scored a century against every other country and has 20 in total, 2 against Australia.

[Donny]

JLC, he's scored 6 centuries in his last 14 Tests, including one against Australia.

Why don't YOU compare that to Tendulkar's record. Wouldn't that make Sach worse than garbage ?

[JLC]

Tendulkar has scored over 9,000 test runs and has been the most consistent batsman in the world over the last decade.

Tendulkar has an average over 50 against Australia which is the best bowling attack in the world. Despite being in bad form he threatens to be the batsman that spoils the farewell party for Steve Waugh.

You can take Kirsten and i will take Tendulkar......too easy

jlc

[Donny]

I'll save you the trouble.

Tendulkar's last 14 Tests have produced 2 centuries, none against Australia.

[JLC]

Here is his profile

Profile:
Perhaps it's the hairstyle, but Gary Kirsten always seems a little older than he is. Then again, it might just be that so established has Kirsten become at the top of the batting order that's it's almost impossible to think of a South African team without him. It's probably fair to say that Gary Kirsten has never been blessed with the flair and the almost pure technique of his half-brother Peter. But when it comes to determination, the ability to concentrate for long periods and a burning desire to score runs, there's little to choose between them. A left-hander with a relatively unique technique, Gary Kirsten has long since worked out his strengths and weaknesses and based his game around them. In this respect he is probably the most organised batsman to play for South Africa since readmission. Calm and level-headed, he brings a healthy degree of common sense to the art of batting. Which possibly explains why off the field and in the dressing room the dafter side of his personality comes out. Periodically Kirsten has endured patches when he persistently seems to get out in similar fashion - chopping it on to his stumps, for instance, or getting himself caught down the leg side. Each time this has happened, though, Kirsten has worked through the problem, made the adjustments and played himself back into form. He has enjoyed particular success on the sub-continent - where other players have floundered against the turning ball, Kirsten has drawn on patience and soft hands to see him through. And if there is any player likely to score a big hundred, then it's Kirsten. He currently shares the South African individual Test record of 275 with Daryll Cullinan but by rights the record should be his alone. After batting for over 14 1/2 hours as South Africa followed on against England at Kingsmead last summer, Kirsten contrived to get himself bowled by Mark Butcher. It was only Butcher's second Test wicket. He then returned to haunt England in 2003 and gutsed out a crucial 130 in the Headingley Test, which South Africa won by 191 runs. (Peter Robinson July 2003)

[JLC]

Ponting rates Tendulkar best batsman
Will Swanton - 16 March 2003


DURBAN, South Africa, March 15 AAP - Overlooking his own players, Ricky Ponting has rated Sachin Tendulkar the best batsmen of his generation as Australia and India head towards the World Cup final at Johannesburg on Sunday.

The Australian captain is less certain about who's the better allrounder out of Andrew Symonds and Ian Harvey.

Placing Tendulkar higher on the pecking order than the likes of Matthew Hayden and the Waugh twins, Ponting admitted the diminutive 29-year-old from Bombay had the ability to win any match off his own bat, including the decider.

"I've always thought he's the best batsman I've seen or played against," said Ponting.

"Looking at the way he's played of late I think he's getting somewhere back to his best again.

"We're going to have to come up with some plans and bowl very well if we come across him to make sure he doesn't get away.

"As we've seen in the past, he's actually won games against us single-handedly on occasions. We're going to have to come up with some good plans if we play against them."

Tendulkar is the leading run-scorer at the Cup with 586 at an average of 65.11.

His strike rate per 100 balls is 90.43.

Australia's best so far has been opener Adam Gilchrist with 329 runs at 41.12 and 102.81.

Tendulkar's overall one-day record is awesome: 312 matches for 12,132 runs at 44.43, with 34 centuries and 61 half-centuries.

India has not been a one-man side, though, while suffering only one loss at the Cup - to Australia by nine wickets, back in early February.

Captain Sourav Ganguly has made 330 runs and three seam bowlers have been a revelation.

Left-armer Zaheer Khan and veteran Javagal Srinath have 15 wickets apiece, two more than Ashish Nehra.

India's weakness when the limited overs carnival began was supposed to be its bowling but that hasn't turned out to be the case.

"They do seem to be playing some pretty good cricket," said Ponting.

"Their bowlers are doing a fantastic job for them. Khan and Nehra are the standouts for them at the moment.

"They've been taking early wickets for them and setting games up for them. The little bloke opening the batting is not doing a bad job for them, either.

"We're playing well, they're playing well. We'll see what happens in a few days' time."

Australia has the tougher semifinal on paper against Sri Lanka at St George's Park, Port Elizabeth, on Tuesday before India takes on Kenya at Durban's Kingsmead ground on Thursday.

Meanwhile, Australia's selection debate between Symonds and Harvey was no closer to being resolved after the five-wicket win over Kenya.

Symonds made 33 not out, while Harvey put together 28 not out and 0-23 from seven tidy overs of medium pace.

One of them will be dropped when Michael Bevan returns against Sri Lanka.

"We'll have to speak about that pretty intensely over the next couple of days," said Ponting.

"It has and will create a bit of a problem going into that next game.

"Harvey has done nothing wrong with the ball and he batted well in this game.

"Andrew Symonds has done nothing wrong with the bat.

"It's going to be a tough one."

Australia's XI won't be finalised until Tuesday morning.

© 2003 AAP NewsWire