Deano - One of the greats ?

[Donny]

There have been some interesting posts about Dean Jones in other topics recently so I'll move them into this 'Deano' thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------
From commonwombat:

Some of you Dean Jones lovers do fail to remember someone who was just as fond of him as you lot.

"Sir" Richard used to say grace at the top of his run-up when Jones took guard.

For what he was about to receive, he was truly grateful!! Don't also forget that Deano's personal defects help write his own death warrant.

You can live with a dickhead as long as he's still deserving of a spot. His future was v finite and with Border gone, his fan club in the elite level could have held it's AGM in a phone booth.
_________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

From piedys:

Jones only poor season was '87/88 vs. Hadlee inspired Kiwis.
His omission from the Aussie XI in '92/93 was based on popularity, not form, sounds accurate.

But since when should popularity hold sway over form, after he lead the batting average on the previous tour of Sri Lanka? We ONLY JUST lost that series to WI, and i would bet my life DJ would have won it for us. Who could forget Border throwing ball against wall in stand in adelaide when McDermott got given out caught behind off his friggin' helmet! That swung the result in a split-second!

And the collective IQ of the Australian selection panel at that time was only worth about the small change one would find inside a phone booth.
And John Benaud is THE biggest ass-wipe to ever select for this country!

Dyso
-------------------------------
From JLC :

It isnt a popularity contest.........this isnt a Miss Australia beauty pagent we are talking about.

Some of the players in the current team have received far more chances than Dean Jones ever received. I can only imagine what would happen to Damian Martyn if he has to face Hadlee in his prime. Imagine if Damian had to face Ambrose at his prime........thats a scary thought. The fact is the Dean Jones era contained a higher level of faster bowler compared to todays era.

jlc
_________________
Collingwood 2004 Premiers - Thanks for coming....

Replied to by commonwombat:

Ah JLC, hate to rain on your parade but Damien Martyn DID make his debut against an Ambrose led Windies attack in the 92-93 series.

Seem to remember he performed more than respectably with his one hickup being that of missing the Adelaide Test (giving Langer his debut) due to the blundering stupidity of Australian cricket's sacred cow, Robert Baddeley Simpson.

Do agree that Deano's era certainly eclipsed whats trundling nowadays but let's not beat about the bush. Deano's career consisted of some admirable heroics such as the Madras 200 and the Adelaide double ton v Windies alongwith some pretty egregious failures.

Please don't paint him as anything other than what he was; a very good but not great intl batsman at Test level who was arguably more consistently effective in limited overs.
_________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

and:

For Dyso-educative purposes as well as throwing a bucket of cold water over the outraged JLC, I do hereby submit some career stats of Dean Mervyn Jones.

Test career: 52 matches, 89 innings, 3631 runs, HS 206, average 46.55 (did you read that Dyso?), 11 100's and 14 50's.

LOI career: 164 matches, 161 innings, 6068 runs, HS 145, ave 44.61, sr 72.56, 7 100's and 46 50's.

Test batting against particular countries:
England: 17 matches, 1320 runs, HS 184, ave 50.76, 3 100's and 8 50's.

India: 8 matches, 681 runs, HS 210, ave 61.90, 2 100's and 2 50's.

Sri Lanka: 6 matches, 537 runs, HS 118, ave 59.66, 3 100's and 2 50's.

West Indies: 10 matches, 631 runs, HS 216, ave 37.41, 1 100 and 1 50.

Pakistan: 6 matches, 291 runs, HS 121, ave 36.37, 2 100's.

NZ: 5 matches, 171 runs, HS 99, ave 24.42, 1 50.

What can we deduce from this?? Playing at the time that he did, he could justifiably be classified as Australia's first great LOI batsman (the case for Greg Chappell could well be argued).

At Test level, he clearly had good success against England, India and Sri Lanka, all tough opponents esp at home. Against the then yardstick, West Indies, the story is considerably less impressive with his average and figures boosted by the ONE undeniably superb double ton at Adelaide, reckon he owes Merv beers for life for that effort.

Could read ditto for Pakistan who boasted a similarly strong pace attack where he had a horror movie tour and his figures are resurrected from abyssmal by 2 tons at home.NZ, and Sir Wanker. There's one 99 in there, otherwise we're looking at Warne-Cullinan stats fellas.
_________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

[Donny]

wombat, please don't make me ask donny for Deano's test average, as i'm pretty confident it begins with a 5... before he was "retired".

dyso
_________________
Ronnie McKeown retired too early!!

JLC:

Next you will be saying Damian Martyn is a better player.....lol Please spare me.

The one day players now a days the batsman have it pretty good with most grounds having the boundary line roped in thus making it easier to hit fours and sixes and the wickets are more often than not batter friendly. Dean Jones in his era did superbly in the one day form of the game.

jlc
_________________
Collingwood 2004 Premiers - Thanks for coming....


Which Australian batsman excelled against the West Indies at that time?? Most batsman in world cricket struggled against the Windies and thats what made them the best. The only Australian batsman probably was Alan Border. Even the great Steve Waugh struggled against them in their prime.

jlc
_________________
Collingwood 2004 Premiers - Thanks for coming....

commonwombat:

Ever thought of entering politics, JLC ??? Some of yr evasions, about turns and abrupt changes would make Johnny Howard proud.

BTW, Border had his outs against the Windies too. That is not the point. The fact is that you have been trying to paint Mr Jones as something he was not.

Undeniably great one-day batsman, he certainly was. His Test record was certainly very repectable but frankly cannot be classified as great. He had undeniably excellent stats against sides like England, India and Sri Lanka. By no means am I denigrating these performances as many others failed against these opponents esp when playing away.

However against such opponents as the Windies, Pakistan and New Zealand who possessed many fine and indeed great pace bowlers over the period; his record is considerably less impressive. Against these teams, his figures were saved from complete ruin by occaissional heroics.

A realistic but fair summation is that he was frequently found wanting by a number of great pace bowlers going round at the time. Before you declare Wombat season, do please have a look at his stats which do bear out I'm saying.
_________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

JLC: which batsman at that time excelled ??

jlc
_________________
Collingwood 2004 Premiers - Thanks for coming....

commonwombat:

Ah JLC, my point is that he was also found out by the Pakistanis ( ie Imran, Akram etc) and by Hadlee as well.

That would give a clue that he was found generally found wanting by many of the class pacemen going around at the time.
_________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

JLC:

Yeah and which batsman in the Australian team or around the world excelled against those attacks??

Lets not forget Hayden was found short when facing Donald.

It would be wonderful if Jones could swap eras and face the likes of Argarkar and Zimbabwe the current West Indian and Kiwi teams and batsman like Langer and Martyn and even Hayden faced the likes of Akram, Khan, Hadlee, Ambrose in their prime.

jlc
_________________
Collingwood 2004 Premiers - Thanks for coming....

piedys:

commonwombat wrote:

For Dyso-educative purposes as well as throwing a bucket of cold water over the outraged JLC, I do hereby submit some career stats of Dean Mervyn Jones.

Test career: 52 matches, 89 innings, 3631 runs, HS 206, average 46.55 (did you read that Dyso?), 11 100's and 14 50's.


Wombat, not quite the test average i thought it was, but still servicable against the quality of bowlers he, Boony and Border faced series after series. Unlike the pie-throwers representing all other nations going round now. The 200 vs. India in 1986 was an all-time classic. The 200 vs. WI in Adelaide in 1989 certainly secured him his berth for the ashes tour that year and rightful so.

My only criticism of him was changing his brand of bat from County to kookaburra in the last 80's. That coincided with the Hadlee-slump.
-------------------------------------------------------
commonwombat:

Yes Dyso,

By no means was I rubbishing his record which overall was respectable merely putting the facts forward and into perspective when some were projecting him as some sort of batting god.

Do certainly agree with yr point about changing bat brand. Have never thought much of Kookaburra bats especially in their earlier years when I'd have chosen a fence paling ahead of them.

Then again over my career I was a cricket bat conservative being a Gray-Nicholls or Duncan Fearnley man myself although did hit 150 in a grade match at Manly back in 89 with a team-mates County once. Bastard made me hand it back though.

________________
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!

[Donny]

A panel of about 10 of the greatest former players was asked to select the best ODI team ever.

I'm not exactly sure when but I reckon it was about 3 years ago.

I'll endevour to find that team but I do remember Dean Jones was a unanimous selection in the top 6.

I think the first 4 were Tendulkar, Gilchrist (just pipped Desmond Haynes), Viv Richards and Deano.

[Sultan of spin]

As I have already stated on this board Deano is one of the best and most talented batsman I have ever seen. I have no doubt he should have played 100 tests for Australia. It pisses me off to hear people say he was a one-day specialists because he was a wonderful test player he could bat anywhere in the order and is probably the best outfielder I have ever seen also.

His 210 in Madras in the 86' tied test is one of the most remarkable in tset histoty and shows that not only was he a wonderful talented he was incredibly mental strong and determined as well.

Deano was the first ever Australian to average over 50 in both forms of the game and for this reason I think he has to be remembered as one of the greats.

[Donny]

Well, SoS, he WAS a one day specialist but that doesn't infer he was a failure at Tests.

As I said, he was unanimously selected in a 'best ever' world ODI team but wouldn't come close in a similar Test team. Or even a best ever Oz team.

He never opened in a Test so your 'bat anywhere in the order' is a bit off the mark. Apart from his first 2 innings - at 7 & 8 (gee, we must have had a strong batting lineup!) - he played all his Tests at 3,4,5 & 6.

He must have had the highest current batting average of any player to have ever been dropped. Over his last 7 innings, he averaged 85 with 150 n.o. and 100 n.o. and 2 fifties !! How do we understand that ?

Even taking the 2 not outs from his average, he still averaged 61 from each innings. And he batted at #4 for each of them.

And, SoS, he is one of my all time favourites.

[commonwombat]

I think you summed it up aptly in yr first 3 stanzas Donny.

He was an undeniably great one day batsmen, one of our first in that regard but realistically only a good player at Test level as borne out by his record.

Let's just respect him for what he was rather than making him out to be something he was not as is looking to be the case with David Hookes tragic death.

[Sultan of spin]

I agree with all your points Donny and he was one of my all time favourites as well probably my favourite ever batsman.

Test cricket has been played for a far greater peroid than ODI cricket hence more players have played test matches so naturally it would be harder to make a best ever in tests than ODI.

I think he would have been reguarded as one of our top test players if he had of played as any test as he should have. If he had had played for another 5 years in the test team the standard of world cricket had dropped considerably from what it was when he started his career IMO, hence his average would have gone up, also I think he played his best cricket in the peroid after he was dropped, I remember he made a 300* late in his career in shield cricket and he could have made as many as he wanted cos no one was going to get him out.

[commonwombat]

A barsman???

Would think that sort of performer may be pulling his head in somewhat lately considering this week's events. Conversely, bearing in mind Deano's personality, being kicked out of a few bars would not have surprised.

Before outraged Vic's take too much umbrage, such personal characteristics have been alluded to in a number of books so this comment is not a figment of my imagination or some anti-Jones animus.

To yr assertion that he could have played intl cricket for another 5 years, I can only reply "Get real !!!".

At the time of his final LOI in Sth Africa in 94, he was already 33 y.o (the same age if not older than some current players that have been proposed as human sacrifices by some on the board. Yes, Mr Jones was born March 1961 and had already been around intl cricket for over 10 years.

The point as to whether he was axed from Tests too early is certainly arguable and he was arguably still worthy of one day selection when shown the door but 5 more years at that level is laughable. One more season possibly 2.

Yr argument on these grounds is long on admirable rhetoric but sadly does not stand up to hard analysis.

[Sultan of spin]

That was a farily ridiculous comment wombat. Just because i made a spelling mistake dosen't mean you should be attacking the character of a great Australian cricketer

[commonwombat]

Dean Jones's character traits are on the public record, Sultan.

There are the run-ins with other Victorian players ie Darren Berry. It is even alluded to in his bio on Cric-Info/Baggygreen.

If you wish to , the books Calypso Cricket by Roland Fishman and Tim May's Mayhem where Jeff James is clearly based on Deano may be educational reading.

My snide little shot at yr typo is by no means implying that he is or has ever been a pub brawler but having met the man on a number of occaisions, his overbearing manner may have worn out a few welcomes.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, my comments on his manner is not a figment of my imagination or anti-VIc or Jones bias; the facts are on the public record. It may have indded played a part in his to yr mind early demise from intl cricket.

People put up with arseholes if the arsehole is outstanding at what they do and are performing. By that stage he was no longer an automatic or assured selection. Certainly cannot be assured that this was the case but it appears more than plausible.

You found my comment offensive. That I regret but you to my mind have been guilty of making some very grand pronouncements that really don't stand scrutiny. He was a very fine cricketer and I can understand why he was yr hero but yr painting himas something he was not not.

Analysis of his record reads very clearly of his strengths and failures. His character is also a matter of the public record.

[Sultan of spin]

His record does tell a story and that is a story of a wonderful cricketer. As for him as a person I have only had a couple of brief encounters with him but he seemed nice enough but I have heard form others that he this was not always the case.

But I think the charity walk he has recently completed also tells as something about his character, To raise over a million dollars for charity by putting himself through such a physical test and mental test is something to be appluaded.

[commonwombat]

Yr point is well made Sultan. There are 2 sides to everyone's character and his recent charity walk does indeed speak very eloquently of his generosity and wholehearted endeavour.

Did also read a piece in the Australian (Mike Coward) where he roped Ganguly in to appear and help with a coaching clinic he was running down in Hobart. Apparently he is running a number of these around the place.

It appears sad that his manner has probably served to his detriment thru his career.

[Sultan of spin]

I think since he has retired he has become much more involved in this sort of thing and his reputation has certainly began to be repaired. I agree it is disapointing that external things outside of cricket had such a deteramental effect on his career.

[JLC]

I think run ins with other players can be a little over rated. No doubt when Bucks first arrived at Collingwood he had plenty of run in with other players as they all thought he was a mercinary........now you wouldnt say Buckley was a person of bad character would you ??

When you have a cricket team of 11 players it is written in law that everyone has to get along....lol Some people just dont mix well. Eg MacGill

jlc

[punkologist]

As a kid growing up, some of my most treasured memories of the cricket were of Dean Jones. He was an absolute champion in both forms of the game.

I was distraught when he was dropped from the test side.

I agree with other posters that he was playing in an era when the oposition bowlers were far better, especially the West Indies and England.

I will always remember the time he asked Curtly Ambrose to remove his white sweatband during a one dayer at night. Curty was not impressed and from memory Jones didn't last much longer in that match.