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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| E wrote: | | Mossi wrote: | | I have had the feeling Dollar Daisy's intention was to leave the club at the end of his contract as early as 2013 started as he would not sign. Bucks would have summised this early and maybe one of the reasons he was playing him of the halfback flack the few times Thomas played. Also "The ankle" may not be as bad as we think it is. We will see in the next few years. Thomas closed shop with us Collingwood, it's about time we Collingwood closed shop with the Scum player! |
In my opinion, you are making excuses for Nathan Buckley. If someone wants to leave, you have two choices.
1 - Do nothing (or worse, encourage them to leave).
2 - set about changing that players view of the situation. Address the persons concerns and engage.
Collingwood is not such a little child that it cant change minds. It was able to do that with Travis cloke - becasue at the end of the day Travis was more valuable to Collingwood than Daisy.
Daisy is not the first player who couldnt get along with Bucks. Witness the 1990 premiership team's reaction to him (Nathan even admitted this in his book). He is uncompromising and it has to be done his way.
All of this is just to say that if someone shows that he might want to leave a club at the start of a season, its never a done deal unless the club isnt willing to fight for that person and if you are right about him being played on the half back flank, that is harly going to have resulted in any outcome other than player Thomas continuing to want to leave the club. So ask yourself, why would Collingwood do that? |
Actually heard a very credible story from a collingwood source that Trav was leaving because of Mick and didn't believe that the senior coach succession plan to Bucks would take place. It wasn't till it had happened that he event started negotiating a contract.
I think value though is still relative to affordability and commitment. There is no way Daisy was worth the dollars carlton offered and given his relationship with Mick - not Bucks there was a huge question over commitment.
As it is we lost daisy, got pick 6 and salary cap space and picked up a very committed potential 10 year contested ball winner in Adams that actively chose the pies over other clubs with Bucks a big reason for it.
Id say Bucks has done his Job and Well
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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WhyPhilWhy?
WhyPhilWhy?
Joined: 09 Oct 2001
Location: Location: Location:
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| I can't help but wonder what Thomas will do when the Blues fail to make the 8 again next year and Captain Grumpy is sacked with 4 rounds to go. |
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Stinger
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: Canberra
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| WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | | I can't help but wonder what Thomas will do when the Blues fail to make the 8 again next year and Captain Grumpy is sacked with 4 rounds to go. |
Keep on counting his money I suspect. |
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Geek
geek
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana
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finally, the "egg on their face" comments still irritates me because it was very out of character for Daisy. I would love to know the facts leading up to that comment. I believe that when he made the comment, he thought there was a strong chance he was staying. I wonder if Thomas proposed a near market offer and then Collingwood decided not to accept it.
don't you think about that? |
My recollection was that Carlton leaked an unofficial number (750k) to the press on the Friday before deadline. They were fishing to see how much over the market they had to pay in order to get him.
The fans immediately lit up the Web saying 750 kpa is BS and he's nowhere near worth that. We would have been paying him more than Pendles/Swan/etc... Eddie or Perty may have said something to that effect as well.
I reckon Carlton has then decided that they could get him for less and have made a reduced offer to Thomas. There was talk over that weekend about the actual number being closer to 625kpa. Much as the scuttlebutt had Thomas wanting to play for the filth for some time prior to the decision, I doubt he would have been too happy with losing 125kpa so easily.
So Thomas's message to the kids might not have been for their benefit at all but just a way of reminding Carlton that he had to agree to the terms too. Carlton eventually made an offer up around what they initially suggested.
Cynical? F--- yeah. But it does fit the timeline nicely. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| MJ23 wrote: | | E wrote: | | Mossi wrote: | | I have had the feeling Dollar Daisy's intention was to leave the club at the end of his contract as early as 2013 started as he would not sign. Bucks would have summised this early and maybe one of the reasons he was playing him of the halfback flack the few times Thomas played. Also "The ankle" may not be as bad as we think it is. We will see in the next few years. Thomas closed shop with us Collingwood, it's about time we Collingwood closed shop with the Scum player! |
In my opinion, you are making excuses for Nathan Buckley. If someone wants to leave, you have two choices.
1 - Do nothing (or worse, encourage them to leave).
2 - set about changing that players view of the situation. Address the persons concerns and engage.
Collingwood is not such a little child that it cant change minds. It was able to do that with Travis cloke - becasue at the end of the day Travis was more valuable to Collingwood than Daisy.
Daisy is not the first player who couldnt get along with Bucks. Witness the 1990 premiership team's reaction to him (Nathan even admitted this in his book). He is uncompromising and it has to be done his way.
All of this is just to say that if someone shows that he might want to leave a club at the start of a season, its never a done deal unless the club isnt willing to fight for that person and if you are right about him being played on the half back flank, that is harly going to have resulted in any outcome other than player Thomas continuing to want to leave the club. So ask yourself, why would Collingwood do that? |
Actually heard a very credible story from a collingwood source that Trav was leaving because of Mick and didn't believe that the senior coach succession plan to Bucks would take place. It wasn't till it had happened that he event started negotiating a contract.
I think value though is still relative to affordability and commitment. There is no way Daisy was worth the dollars carlton offered and given his relationship with Mick - not Bucks there was a huge question over commitment.
As it is we lost daisy, got pick 6 and salary cap space and picked up a very committed potential 10 year contested ball winner in Adams that actively chose the pies over other clubs with Bucks a big reason for it.
Id say Bucks has done his Job and Well |
I could easily be wrong (I am getting old and prone to memory lapses), but I thought the cloke saga played out during Nathan's first year as coach and not prior to his appointment.
I agree Bucks is doing a tremendous job of reshaping the list in a way he thinks can win. Very happy at all of the changes made to the list for this year, but especially for three years time. You have to give quality (Thomas and Shaw), to get quality and Collingwood (Scharenberg and Adams) and in a lot of ways, we may end up lucky that Bucks decided to go in a different direction while each of Thomas and Shaw still had super significant value.
For those who will argue that Thomas left as a free agent, I would like to point out that I am 100% certain that Collingwood took into account the fact that they would get a top 10 pick in deciding whether to pay up for Thomas. I digress.
I mean imagine what we could have gotten for Jolly, Didak and Wellers immediately after 2010 vs what value we got after 2010!!!!!! Of course, no club has the balls to trade premiership heroes like that, but you get the point.
anyway, pies looking great and I am a big Buckley fan.
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Geek wrote: | | E wrote: |
finally, the "egg on their face" comments still irritates me because it was very out of character for Daisy. I would love to know the facts leading up to that comment. I believe that when he made the comment, he thought there was a strong chance he was staying. I wonder if Thomas proposed a near market offer and then Collingwood decided not to accept it.
don't you think about that? |
My recollection was that Carlton leaked an unofficial number (750k) to the press on the Friday before deadline. They were fishing to see how much over the market they had to pay in order to get him.
The fans immediately lit up the Web saying 750 kpa is BS and he's nowhere near worth that. We would have been paying him more than Pendles/Swan/etc... Eddie or Perty may have said something to that effect as well.
I reckon Carlton has then decided that they could get him for less and have made a reduced offer to Thomas. There was talk over that weekend about the actual number being closer to 625kpa. Much as the scuttlebutt had Thomas wanting to play for the filth for some time prior to the decision, I doubt he would have been too happy with losing 125kpa so easily.
So Thomas's message to the kids might not have been for their benefit at all but just a way of reminding Carlton that he had to agree to the terms too. Carlton eventually made an offer up around what they initially suggested.
Cynical? F--- yeah. But it does fit the timeline nicely. |
Interesting (and plausible). I wonder how it really went down. I guess we have to wait for Daisy's (or Eddie or Nathan's) next book!!!!!
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| E wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | E wrote: | | Mossi wrote: | | I have had the feeling Dollar Daisy's intention was to leave the club at the end of his contract as early as 2013 started as he would not sign. Bucks would have summised this early and maybe one of the reasons he was playing him of the halfback flack the few times Thomas played. Also "The ankle" may not be as bad as we think it is. We will see in the next few years. Thomas closed shop with us Collingwood, it's about time we Collingwood closed shop with the Scum player! |
In my opinion, you are making excuses for Nathan Buckley. If someone wants to leave, you have two choices.
1 - Do nothing (or worse, encourage them to leave).
2 - set about changing that players view of the situation. Address the persons concerns and engage.
Collingwood is not such a little child that it cant change minds. It was able to do that with Travis cloke - becasue at the end of the day Travis was more valuable to Collingwood than Daisy.
Daisy is not the first player who couldnt get along with Bucks. Witness the 1990 premiership team's reaction to him (Nathan even admitted this in his book). He is uncompromising and it has to be done his way.
All of this is just to say that if someone shows that he might want to leave a club at the start of a season, its never a done deal unless the club isnt willing to fight for that person and if you are right about him being played on the half back flank, that is harly going to have resulted in any outcome other than player Thomas continuing to want to leave the club. So ask yourself, why would Collingwood do that? |
Actually heard a very credible story from a collingwood source that Trav was leaving because of Mick and didn't believe that the senior coach succession plan to Bucks would take place. It wasn't till it had happened that he event started negotiating a contract.
I think value though is still relative to affordability and commitment. There is no way Daisy was worth the dollars carlton offered and given his relationship with Mick - not Bucks there was a huge question over commitment.
As it is we lost daisy, got pick 6 and salary cap space and picked up a very committed potential 10 year contested ball winner in Adams that actively chose the pies over other clubs with Bucks a big reason for it.
Id say Bucks has done his Job and Well |
I could easily be wrong (I am getting old and prone to memory lapses), but I thought the cloke saga played out during Nathan's first year as coach and not prior to his appointment.
I agree Bucks is doing a tremendous job of reshaping the list in a way he thinks can win. Very happy at all of the changes made to the list for this year, but especially for three years time. You have to give quality (Thomas and Shaw), to get quality and Collingwood (Scharenberg and Adams) and in a lot of ways, we may end up lucky that Bucks decided to go in a different direction while each of Thomas and Shaw still had super significant value.
For those who will argue that Thomas left as a free agent, I would like to point out that I am 100% certain that Collingwood took into account the fact that they would get a top 10 pick in deciding whether to pay up for Thomas. I digress.
I mean imagine what we could have gotten for Jolly, Didak and Wellers immediately after 2010 vs what value we got after 2010!!!!!! Of course, no club has the balls to trade premiership heroes like that, but you get the point.
anyway, pies looking great and I am a big Buckley fan. |
Spot on in all accounts.
It did play out in Bucks first year however what I heard was Trav and his "manager" refused point blank to consider a contract negotiation in Micks last year and had sought offers from other clubs. When Mick left and Bucks took over they virtually started from scratch. Even then I agree it was drawn out however we were going in behind what he had already on the table and we had some other significant players also to consider.
I know a few of the fringe players at the time ( including Premiership players) were not happy with Mick and how he selectively treated players.
One had not had a one on one discussion with Mick in 2 years and was gone - he is still with us now and loves Bucks
Looking back Id say this was when the Daisy consideration in not re-contracting could have occurred and I guess what I was trying to say earlier would of been about maturity, commitment and attitude rather than the injury at that time. Not doing all he could to get himself right in the off season was probably a big factor also.
As you said, you have to give quality to get quality and the balance is around short term versus long. There is no doubt the decision on Thomas was "assisted" by the compensation we were able to get ( which was staggering)
In the end what I think they have tried to do is trade out and back in a skill level that does not leave us too far behind what we had short term with the ability to improve and be better medium term and at the same time take a huge leap in culture in the immediate term.
I cant help but think that Daisy leaving is ultimately what the club wanted and played it out as planned given all the circumstances. Better he leave then be traded given how popular he was. In saying that they would have had to know he would willingly go either for money or for Mick.
On wellers - I still wish we hadn't let him go and think the type of role he played is still what we are missing. Hopefully one of the young blokes can step into it.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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Ig Carlton told Collingwood they offer 750K that goes in the cap. If trhey pull a fast one and get caught they are guilty of draft tampering and salary cap rorting (again) and the future in terms of draft choices is farked. Given their previous recotd you could imagine they could rack up a few spoons. And Murphy and kreuzer are going to want more.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Post subject: Re: Yes | |
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| Hiss wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | I guess Hiss will weep tears of blood when dollar daisy does his dodgy ankle playing the Pies, and we kick the scum nuts in by ten goals plus. when you go to the scum every drop of Magpie black n white blood is drained outa you, for good, for ever and a day. Period. !! and that is my last word on dollar daisy and the old man, that's it, finito. |
I don't see you defending The New Magpies in the 80's over the fantastic social club facilities we enjoyed! Oh no! It's only Toorak Ed you like. What about Phil Carmen ? I don't see you thanking him for his great service. He was the greatest player we ever had. What about that! |
the so called New Magpies spent like drunken sailors on dud players, nearly sent the whole club bankrupt, on our knees financially, that is a fact Hiss, its a historical fact. As for carman, he was a great player, but his temper cost us the 1977 flag, he was suspended, ask tom hafey what he thinks of carman, he is still furious with him.  As for eddie, im inclined to think his time as Pies prez must come to an end soon, twelve years is a long time, but its up to him I guess, when he retires. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Stupied wrote: | | WarrenerraW wrote: | | 16 pages and still going strong. |
Doesn't help that guys like PnC keep getting sucked in by Hiss' painfully obvious trolling. |
Point taken, but his re writing of history re the New Magpies just had to be corrected mate. 
As for Dollar Daisy, I have had my last and final word, he no longer exists for me. Over and out.
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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Do you mean that's it for good, or that's just it for page 16. a quick glance at page 15 reveals the following from you:
"I guess Hiss will weep tears of blood when dollar daisy does his dodgy ankle playing the Pies, and we kick the scum nuts in by ten goals plus. when you go to the scum every drop of Magpie black n white blood is drained outa you, for good, for ever and a day. Period. !! and that is my last word on dollar daisy and the old man, that's it, finito."
too funny!
As for hiss, now that Jack Spain is gone, we need at least one trouble maker. I am not allowed to be a trouble maker, so I will enjoy Hiss providing the amusement.
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Geek
geek
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana
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| ronrat wrote: | | Ig Carlton told Collingwood they offer 750K that goes in the cap. If trhey pull a fast one and get caught they are guilty of draft tampering and salary cap rorting (again) and the future in terms of draft choices is farked. Given their previous recotd you could imagine they could rack up a few spoons. And Murphy and kreuzer are going to want more. |
But they didn't officially say it though. "Reliable sources within the club informed us that..."
Job done. |
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Hiss 
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: Geelong
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| Post subject: Yes | |
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Good on you Dale. Please ignore these bogan bitter posters on Nicks. You will show what a true Collingwood bred champion you are when you take the field this season. We will all stand and applaud you and thankyou for the loyal great service you gave at Collingwood. We can't wait to welcome you back home when you are ready champion.
_________________
I love this club and I hold anyone in contempt who does not think it is worth fighting for. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Geek wrote: | | ronrat wrote: | | Ig Carlton told Collingwood they offer 750K that goes in the cap. If trhey pull a fast one and get caught they are guilty of draft tampering and salary cap rorting (again) and the future in terms of draft choices is farked. Given their previous recotd you could imagine they could rack up a few spoons. And Murphy and kreuzer are going to want more. |
But they didn't officially say it though. "Reliable sources within the club informed us that..."
Job done. |
Dude they lodge a form with the AFL that specifies precisely what is offered. Pies can match that offer sheet. its the offer sheet that counts for purposes of salary cap. would be pretty stupid to do that and then agree secretly to pay less (unless carlton need to save money (which they dont).
incidentally, carlton are free to pay daisy whatever they want and can agree with daisy but the number for salary cap is fixed for the term of the contract.
or are you suggesting collingwood never officially told us what was in the offer sheet?
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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