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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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That’s the impression I get.
Certainly you don’t care about genuine female athletes who have put the work, sweat, tears and guts into their sport, for however many years, since you think it’s acceptable for them to be shoved off the podium by someone who may well identify as a female, believe 100% that they were born in the wrong body, but still they will always always have the wrong body no matter how many drugs or how much surgery they have.
No one on earth gets everything they desire, no one, not even the queen, God, Trump, no one, Why should transgenders get to? Which ever way you look at it, they potentially have an enormous advantage, and yes I know, certain woman naturally do, lucky them, but it’s not genetically modified.
And don’t give me the but I’m a 10 lb weekling thing, you could be a jockey, I couldn’t!
So now accusation of not accepting them as ‘real’ woman, I admit, I don’t. I have no issue with anyone living how they want, how they feel they need to, but there will always be barriers, and some of them should stay in place.
Andan asterisk will always be next to their names, even if it’s invisible likethe ones next to the Chinese swimmers wins!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That's a saddening opinion. Do you notice that you've created a dichotomy between so-called "genuine" female athletes who put years of hard work into their sport and the transgender athletes who simply turn up and "shove them off the podium"? Whether or not they are blessed with physical advantages, don't you think that trans athletes train just as hard for their success, and deserve better than to be treated as frauds stealing medals away from "real" women?
As for nobody getting everything they want, again, it's not as if these people are just turning up and asking for a medal. They want to compete honestly, do the best they can and succeed at what they love doing, just like any other female athlete. I think there has to be a very good reason for them to be turned away from doing so, and generalisations about male and female bodies aren't enough. If there has to be discrimination, at least shape it in terms of acceptable testosterone levels and body weight, not just a blanket ban.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Would it seriously be such a large sacrifice if you said to a transgender female that they were legally female and recognised as such for all purposes with one exception, they are not allowed to compete at the top level in female sport due to inherent biological advantages?
The vast majority of top level athletes are finished their career by their early 30's. They could still indulge their competitive instincts at a local more social level.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | That's a saddening opinion. Do you notice that you've created a dichotomy between so-called "genuine" female athletes who put years of hard work into their sport and the transgender athletes who simply turn up and "shove them off the podium"? Whether or not they are blessed with physical advantages, don't you think that trans athletes train just as hard for their success, and deserve better than to be treated as frauds stealing medals away from "real" women?
As for nobody getting everything they want, again, it's not as if these people are just turning up and asking for a medal. They want to compete honestly, do the best they can and succeed at what they love doing, just like any other female athlete. I think there has to be a very good reason for them to be turned away from doing so, and generalisations about male and female bodies aren't enough. If there has to be discrimination, at least shape it in terms of acceptable testosterone levels and body weight, not just a blanket ban. |
Your not going to make me feel guilty or bad about my opinion, if they want to compete at the top level they can start a transgender league. There is a good reason, they were born with a male body and regardless of what they do to it they will die with a male body.
I agree totally with with Stu in his post, and I’ll add if they want to compete st the highest level do it before you transition
I honestly can’t believe any of the transgenders that have won anything after they transition really think they deserve it, make if it what you will but there is a reason women’s tennis is three sets not 5.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ And if they've had reassignment surgery? Or is "a male body" just whatever you choose to define it as?
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | ^ And if they've had reassignment surgery? Or is "a male body" just whatever you choose to define it as? |
Cosmetic surgery doesn't change your biological sex. They still need to be screened for prostate cancer, they'll be identified as male if their remains are ever dug up. Mutilation and hormone manipulation doesn't make someone a woman.
I have no issue with anyone of sound mind making these decisions about their own body, they can mess it up as much as they want and I wouldn't be rude or mean to someone because of these decisions, but the suicide rates of post ops and the huge number of cases of regret and wanting reversals makes me wonder how many transgender people are of sane mind and how many are suffering from mental illness that needs treatment, not indulging. If they thought they were a cat, or Napoleon or a hat stand then they would be treated for delusions, there is zero reason why gender dysphoria should be treated differently. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | ^ And if they've had reassignment surgery? Or is "a male body" just whatever you choose to define it as? |
Gender is a social construct but biology isn't.
Lines is sport have been drawn down the binary lines of Sex, not gender to ensure women don't compete against men.
For mine there's too many variables to deal with hence I suggest the blanket ban on top level sport.
Having full reassignment surgery as a 25 year old who had already competed at the elite level as a male for example isn't going to undo the years of training or the physiological advantage.
Neither does taking hormones to lower testosterone for someone who may not have competed at the highest level as a male but had a good level of natural ability and years of training .
Shit, if I transitioned at my age (and had 2 knee reconstructions), got a level of fitness up, I could play AFLW as a ruck
You cannot change biology and physiology with a social construct. You can change the social perception, how you're treated and acknowledged. A Male who transitions to a Female should be able to be acknowledged and recognised as female for all purposes, except participation in elite sport.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ And if they've had reassignment surgery? Or is "a male body" just whatever you choose to define it as? |
Cosmetic surgery doesn't change your biological sex. They still need to be screened for prostate cancer, they'll be identified as male if their remains are ever dug up. Mutilation and hormone manipulation doesn't make someone a woman.
I have no issue with anyone of sound mind making these decisions about their own body, they can mess it up as much as they want and I wouldn't be rude or mean to someone because of these decisions, but the suicide rates of post ops and the huge number of cases of regret and wanting reversals makes me wonder how many transgender people are of sane mind and how many are suffering from mental illness that needs treatment, not indulging. If they thought they were a cat, or Napoleon or a hat stand then they would be treated for delusions, there is zero reason why gender dysphoria should be treated differently. |
Stop it.... common sense will not be tolerated in the world today. You should know better.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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What these three said!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ And if they've had reassignment surgery? Or is "a male body" just whatever you choose to define it as? |
Gender is a social construct but biology isn't.
Lines is sport have been drawn down the binary lines of Sex, not gender to ensure women don't compete against men. |
Indeed – it was a blunt instrument, and one that few would disagree with. But back then there was no consideration of what might happen if intersex or transgender people wanted to compete, because such people were virtually invisible in society, and thus no nuance was considered or required. Since then, our ideas of sex segregation (including assumptions about sexual orientation and how men and women ought to dress and behave) have changed quite significantly. We don't have to be slaves to history.
| Quote: | | For mine there's too many variables to deal with hence I suggest the blanket ban on top level sport. |
And if they had undergone reassignment at a much earlier age, and it turned out that all relevant physical characteristics were within a typical female range, you would still deny them – not for fairness, not for competitive integrity, but because "rules are rules"? Who would that exclusion best serve, other than the prejudiced?
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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When your talking about millions and zillions of competing athletes, you don’t make a rule for the odd one or two.
The fact remains they were born with a body, be it male or female, and that’s what biologically they will die with.
What shits me here is you going on about it, makes us all sound cold and heartless, but we are not, you just don’t want to get our point of view. No one is unsympathetic to the situation, not that I can see, everyone has been respectful, but facts are facts, you can’t change biology to the extent where a dug up body will reap different results from when it was born. I actually saw this on a CSI program, they made comments about signs of gender reassignment surgery!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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The only people making you seem cold and heartless are yourselves. Own it. Or else rethink your desire to stop people from doing what they love in service of some abstract principle.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| David wrote: | | The only people making you seem cold and heartless are yourselves. Own it. Or else rethink your desire to stop people from doing what they love in service of some abstract principle. |
The sex you are born with is not an abstract principle it’s a cold hard fact. I’m not against anyone doing anything their heart desires unless it breaks the law, or they have an unfair advantage that is not just a normal variation to their gender, you cannot change your biology. If they feel the need to compete as an athlete then do it before they transition, simple.
I’ve said it before it must be awful to feel you were born in the wrong body , actually I doknow, I’m sure I was meant to be naturally 55kg with legs to my armpits and a tumbling mane of hair, able to leap tall buildings while still looking like an Amazon queen, sadly that ain’t what I got. Guess I’ll live with it hey? Yes a ridiculous comparison but quite frankly I find the whole thing ridiculous.
Being a world champion is not a right. They can live without it, or compete fairly. Otherwise go essendrug and the Chinese swimmers.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: |
| Quote: | | For mine there's too many variables to deal with hence I suggest the blanket ban on top level sport. |
And if they had undergone reassignment at a much earlier age, and it turned out that all relevant physical characteristics were within a typical female range, you would still deny them – not for fairness, not for competitive integrity, but because "rules are rules"? Who would that exclusion best serve, other than the prejudiced? |
I admit I'm taking the soft option there as, like I said, there are too many variables.
If a male transitioned before puberty, took hormones from a young age and then underwent full reassignment surgery and hormone treatment, during which time they did not compete in sport, you'd have a hard time arguing that they had a real physiological advantage.
That's an extreme on one end. Then factor in all the variables apart from just meeting a test for testosterone levels.
Age when transitioned
Current age
Degree transitioned (surgery or hormones or nothing except cosmetic)
Sporting background. To what degree had they participated in sport prior to transitioning with what level of success
Current physical attributes, basically size and strength when compared against other female competitors
From experience, trying to write policy covering all those variables (plus the ones I haven't considered) would make the policy a dogs breakfast and largely unworkable for anyone.
My suggestion of a blanket ban would be accompanied by an appeal option where someone could attempt to prove they did not have an inherent physiological advantage because of their birth gender.
I admit it's not perfect, and it's not aimed at being prejudiced or discriminatory, it's trying to maintain a level playing field for female top level sport.
If they want to compete in sport below the elite level to indulge their competitive instincts, go for it.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This is an interesting article that lands on Davids side but also has snippets that supports mine.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-08/ca-reveals-rules-transgender-players-in-elite-community-cricket/11393860
| Quote: | Key points:
Cricket Australia has introduced new guidelines to allow for the inclusion of transgender and gender diverse people in community and elite cricket
Prospective elite cricketers must nominate their gender identity to CA and prove they have less than 10 nanomoles per litre of testosterone continuously for 12 months prior to nomination
A transgender cricketer who meets the new guidelines could play in the women's national team, but not for at least 12 months |
The level of testosterone is interesting.
| Quote: | The new guidelines are consistent with the International Olympic Committee guidelines, while the AFL's policy has a limit of 5 nanomoles per litre.
"Ninety-eight per cent of women have under 2 nanomoles of testosterone," Australian Institute of Sport chief medical officer David Hughes said.
"For men, the amount averages between 7.7 and 29 nanomoles. In sports that involve power and endurance testosterone gives players an 8-12 per cent advantage." |
Cricket is one of those sports where Skill is more important than size, strength or speed and one where I've long thought that it would be possible for a woman to play against men at the top level.
Bradman was only 5'8'' and wasn't exactly physically robust.
Steve Smith relies far more on timing and placement than brute force.
Have a look at these highlights of Meg Lanning and tell me she couldn't play in the current mens ashes team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkZfVolhN4A
It's really only in the area of fast bowling where Men have a distinct advantage, the fastest ever Female bowler being clocked at about 125 kmph whereas men have passed 160. However, if you can bowl spin or swing with good skill and placement, the strength becomes far less a factor.
The part of the article that supports my previous arguments about inherent physical advantage is the example they chose to use. It also supports David's points about the benefits of team sport and note I never argued against this local level participation, only about elite level.
| Quote: | Transgender cricketer Erica James has been playing in the Universities women's cricket club first-grade team in Sydney alongside Blackwell since 2016.
For the 44-year-old, the experience has been life-changing.
"There's a sense of team when you're out on the field, you celebrate the wins together, you commemorate the losses, it's like a community — I really feel like I've found my tribe — finding a club I can belong to," she said.
Born a male, she began taking female hormones two months before she started playing cricket again in September 2016, after staying away from sport for almost three decades.
"I played cricket in primary school — I didn't want to play in a team of boys, because I knew that I wasn't one — I quit team sports as soon as I could," she said.
"Before this club, the last cricket game I played was 1989.
"Between 15 and 41 I didn't play any sport, I didn't want to be out in the world, I didn't want to pretend to be a boy all the time so I locked myself away from the world.
"When I came out and started living as a woman I remembered how much I loved cricket, I scored my first century last season which was an amazing moment, I cried." |
I'm not sure how many women could take up cricket at 41 after not playing since age 15 and score a century at first grade level.
Anyway, everyone seems happy with the arrangement at the moment, we'll see if that changes in a few years
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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