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The danger of psycho babble

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:49 pm
Post subject: The danger of psycho babbleReply with quote

No doubt each case is different, and it's probably not fair to tar a whole 'profession' with one brush, but I reckon there's been a lot of charlatan snake oil salesman, peddling alternative pop psycho babble to footy clubs, with the promise of giving their teams an extra edge.

Many Nicksters will know that i was a strong critic of the T-Group psycho babble peddled by Leading Teams at our club, amongst several others. I noticed however, that after sacking the one-time Leading teams person from their club, the Tigers went on to win last year's flag. We seem to be a refreshed unit too after cutting ties with the same consultants.

This year we have also witnessed 2 clubs, the Dees and Crows, suffer a player backlash and damage to their team morale and cohesion, following disastrous experiences with psycho oriented team camps.

Maybe it's time to realise that properly trained psychologists can have an important role to play in dealing with individual problems at clubs, and perhaps some input in promoting a healthy team culture. However, it is a risky and potentially damaging process, to buy into pop 'psychologists' peddling mumbo jumbo. FWIW, my brother is a psychologist and he is amazed at how gullible footy clubs have been in paying large consultancy fees for what he considers to be rubbish and damaging services.


Last edited by RudeBoy on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:00 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Geek wrote:
K wrote:
Geek wrote:
Oh and Tex Walker. Great captain's goal gone begging by him in the last quarter... Heheheh...

They're gonna need a fair bit of waterboarding to get over this one.

There's some seriously weird sh** that goes on at that club. A bit disturbing, TBH.

Hear that!

K wrote:
glasseyevfx wrote:
...
Not to take anything away from the win but if I were a crows supporter I'd want to shoot the muppet that came up with the pre season mental camp idea. ...

That was another resounding win for unprofessionalism, mercifully not at our club this time. It's like they've been watching too much Bear Grylls nonsense.


So, yeah, we agree...

Actually, Rudey, you may recall discussion we had (maybe on the Fas thread) last year, including the issue that our club does not have a sports psychologist on its staff. I am disturbed by that --- and perhaps the two issues are related, because I cannot see a qualified psychologist allowing such crap to go ahead.
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Damien Aquarius

Me Noah & Flynn @ the G


Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Anytime any of those mobs are brought in, its to improve culture. Im not at all
against them, I’ve actually engaged several of them professionally in the past, including Leading Teams. Worked with Jim Plunkett who is now in a similar role to Maxi’s at Melbourne FC and Craig Biddiscombe, ex Geelong and Richmond. They were great. Culture happens whether you have them Or Not and a strong culture can be achieved without them. Numerous times I’ve heard Bucks mention this year that they are just focusing on what we do, not what anyone else does or says. This seems to be having a positive effect. Winning certainly helps but either way we look like a very happy and united group at the moment. The word ‘selfless’ is getting bandied about a bit in the last few weeks.too. If that mentality is a big Part of the culture we’re building then we’ll go a long way.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:28 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Damien wrote:
... I’ve actually engaged several of them professionally in the past, including Leading Teams. ...

I'm curious to hear more about this. For what sort of organization? And what specifically did LT do for their client? [I and many Nicksters think they are not only unhelpful, but potentially dangerous.]
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Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:03 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

One of those intangible topics you would love to chat about over a beer rather than the internet.
You will never stop clubs looking for an edge. As long as people have agendas, cutting edge programs in various forms will always be considered ( although you would have thought the Crows learnt their lesson after Nigel Smart and Rod Jamieson badly burnt their feet from fire walking. W T F ! )

The Proof will be in the pudding. If the Crows and Dees have disappointing seasons on field, then that will be enough for the skepticism to kick in. I guarantee though, if either of these clubs win a flag in the near future, there will be other clubs who will be all over it.
The Players Association have a role in this and the public silence has been deafening.
I can only assume they are gathering their facts before preparing a statement to the AFL about the merit and concern about these “ leadership “ development strategies.

One of the best comments I heard about Leading Teams came from Cam Mooney. He said L T has its place but his belief is that these programs aren’t beneficial for clubs with a young list. He reckons it works best with a mature core group who believe their premiership window is open. Mature players, who know their time is running out, will buy in because the end goal is an increased chance at a flag.
Young players tend to think if they play long enough, premierships will just happen, so they believe the programs are uneccesary and over the top. That’s Mooney’s thoughts, not mine.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:10 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies2016 wrote:
...
The Players Association have a role in this and the public silence has been deafening.
I can only assume they are gathering their facts before preparing a statement to the AFL about the merit and concern about these “ leadership “ development strategies.
...

I think the AFLPA was in an awkward position, or felt that it was in an awkward position. Its relationship with Melbourne FC is testy because of its role in stopping the club's bootcamp. This perhaps made the AFLPA too hesitant when Adelaide did something far worse soon after. Now the AFLPA looks inconsistent, but it's job would be easier if clubs didn't all go crazy at the same time.


Last edited by K on Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Damien Aquarius

Me Noah & Flynn @ the G


Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:10 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in a management role in a large inner-Melbourne Council. I got LT In to deal with a fractured culture in My department. There was nothing mysterious about what they did. They facilitated sessions for teams where we talked about what values and behaviours we wanted. The aim Was to sign up to those and then call it when someone didn’t demonstrate them Or acted counter productive to it and also to acknowledge positively when they did demonstrate them. Sometimes it was confronting and not always pleasant but it made you deal with issues, get them out on the table and be aware of how your actions effect others.

I now work by myself in private practice. Much better than Managing people, sitting in meetings, doing budgets, KPI’s and all that other corporate bullsh1t.

As I said, Jim Plunkett (ex Carlton and Doggies) who was with LT is now manager of people and culture at Melbourne. Nick Maxwell is in the same role at CFC as I understand it. Maxi would be perfect because he leads by example and clearly set the standard when Captain that he expected from everyone. He epitomised ‘selfless’.

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:28 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you rude.

They have tried this crap in the mining game.
Overeducated muppets who think their babble is marvelous when in reality it's nothing more than a waste of time and money.
I'm yet to meet anyone who has got anything positive out of these glorified witch doctors.

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Skids, I don't think the problem is that they're "overeducated"; I think the problem is they're uneducated and unqualified.
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:54 pm
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I've attended so many management courses. Your attitude should be to be open minded. Take in what you find appropriate to your job and discard the things that you don't think you can apply to your job. There's nothing really wrong about LT's. We all agree Malthouse was a great coach in his prime years and he believed in it. Therefore we can't just discard the idea behind it without giving it a chance to work. As others have said we don't need it now because we have Maxwell who can fill that role. Other clubs could find benefit from it so why knock it?
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:00 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
I've attended so many management courses. Your attitude should be to be open minded. Take in what you find appropriate to your job and discard the things that you don't think you can apply to your job. There's nothing really wrong about LT's. We all agree Malthouse was a great coach in his prime years and he believed in it. Therefore we can't just discard the idea behind it without giving it a chance to work. As others have said we don't need it now because we have Maxwell who can fill that role. Other clubs could find benefit from it so why knock it?


Why knock it? Because in academic management circles, based on years of research, most of this, including the T Group stuff from Leading Teams, was discredited as long ago as the 1960s. It's been re-packaged and consultants are making big money selling 'the latest methods' to gullible CEOs and senior managers, desperate to find an edge. Inevitably, however, it always gets discarded.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:07 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

BucksIsFutureCoach wrote:
... Your attitude should be to be open minded. Take in what you find appropriate to your job and discard the things that you don't think you can apply to your job....

Well, for starters, I don't think players trapped in a football club using LT can opt out or pick and choose bits according to their own free will, so it's not so simple for them...
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dalyc Scorpio



Joined: 02 Mar 2005


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

K wrote:
Geek wrote:
K wrote:
Geek wrote:
Oh and Tex Walker. Great captain's goal gone begging by him in the last quarter... Heheheh...

They're gonna need a fair bit of waterboarding to get over this one.

There's some seriously weird sh** that goes on at that club. A bit disturbing, TBH.

Hear that!

K wrote:
glasseyevfx wrote:
...
Not to take anything away from the win but if I were a crows supporter I'd want to shoot the muppet that came up with the pre season mental camp idea. ...

That was another resounding win for unprofessionalism, mercifully not at our club this time. It's like they've been watching too much Bear Grylls nonsense.


So, yeah, we agree...

Actually, Rudey, you may recall discussion we had (maybe on the Fas thread) last year, including the issue that our club does not have a sports psychologist on its staff. I am disturbed by that --- and perhaps the two issues are related, because I cannot see a qualified psychologist allowing such crap to go ahead.


Like how Bombers Dr Reid wouldn’t allow unknown substances to be injected into players?

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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:14 pm
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^^^
Well, maybe the AHPRA should have suspended his medical licence.
From the Bradshaw thread:
The AFL may or may not have come to effectively an out-of-court settlement with Reid: He took a three-month leave and the AFL refused to either confirm or deny that it was an informal punishment. But that is all irrelevant to what the AHPRA could or should have done. It is mandatory for medical professionals to report medical misconduct by others, so failure to report may have been another thing the AHPRA could/should have investigated (Reid's rather feeble protest letters to others at the club being evidence he was aware).
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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:13 pm
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They tried this rubbish in Defence in the 90s with all the team building stuff. The trouble was the entire focus of miltary training is team building, group and individual problem solving, leadership, discipline, etc. So we had all these Pollyannas and the like trying to tell 25 year service old veterans who had risen through the ranks and were now Senior NCOs being told how to deal with situations they encountered every day of their working lives. A lot of tears and "why are you so mean" etc. In the end they dumped it as not cost effective, no benefit, divisive and time wasting.
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