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The danger of psycho babble

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bally12 Aquarius



Joined: 30 Sep 2010


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:34 pm
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These programs are cringeoworthy to say the least. So some profit-driven group will come and teach us basic human values like integrity, honesty, transparency, teamwork, empathy, ethical behaviour, positivity, leadership, as if they invented them? P#ss off.

Save your money and spend it on a psychologist instead. Yes to programs like mindfulness meditation, which I think are really beneficial to everyone, not just sports team..most teams are doing that now anyway.

I could be wrong, but my feeling is that these programs may have appealed to Buckley because his personality appeared to lean towards being driven, rules-based, methodical. These traits are great to getting the most out of yourself indvidually as an athlete, however not good as a coach of young men.
Seeing Bucks being "mentored" by Trevor Hendy in the coaches box was a sign we had taken this too far. I'm really glad they are gone. I'm also happy to see Buckley a more rounded, sociable, natural person. Who knows, maybe the "new" Buckley would have kept Heath Shaw at the club, instead of being so hard-line with him back then. Just hypothesising.
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E 



Joined: 05 May 2010


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:45 pm
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i actually believe that the secret to Collingwood's new found success was my letter to Buckley after round 1.

I told him that the team was playing tight and without daring. They looked like a team that was concentrating so hard on doing the right thing that they became mechanical and very predictable.

I told him to allow the players to let their mojo loose and to play with flair and passion and to have fun!!

I told him that the structures that they put in place are brilliant, but they have to be the base and not the end game. the end game is to let the players natural ability shine through.

The main thing i told them is that you punish lack of EFFORT and not failure of execution. Fear of failure creates failure. It is the reason they miss easy set shots. it's the reason they don't take the game on (and dink it sideways). They were scared of failing.

Last three weeks he has followed the message to a tee. I even think he was seen having fun himself this week.

Message received.

You're welcome lads.....

And by the way, if you are wondering why you aren't as successful as you would like to be in your own lives, this is your answer.....

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Last edited by E on Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:45 pm
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ronrat wrote:
They tried this rubbish in Defence in the 90s with all the team building stuff. The trouble was the entire focus of miltary training is team building, group and individual problem solving, leadership, discipline, etc. So we had all these Pollyannas and the like trying to tell 25 year service old veterans who had risen through the ranks and were now Senior NCOs being told how to deal with situations they encountered every day of their working lives. A lot of tears and "why are you so mean" etc. In the end they dumped it as not cost effective, no benefit, divisive and time wasting.


Exactly.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:53 pm
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bally12 wrote:
... P#ss off.

Save your money and spend it on a psychologist instead. Yes to programs like mindfulness meditation, which I think are really beneficial to everyone, not just sports team..most teams are doing that now anyway.
...

Seeing Bucks being "mentored" by Trevor Hendy in the coaches box was a sign we had taken this too far. ...

Yes. And Yes. Trevor Hendy would be okay perhaps if Buckley were training to be an ironman... But Hendy was, as far as we could tell, supposed to be some sort of "life coach". What reason is there to believe Hendy would be good at that? It's absurd. At least there was probably no risk of great harm being done (unlike an Adelaide-style torture camp), but equally low risk of good coming out of it. We're still seeing signs of this sort of hiring at the club now, unfortunately.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:03 am
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^ yes, the military have a very clear model for execution. Explain the goal a level up, and two levels up. Then let the people at the coal face, guided by their captains and lieutenants, decide how to accomplish it based on the presenting circumstances at the time. Never punish initiative which is trying to fulfill the commander’s intent.

Prescriptive planning is worse than useless, because plans do not survive contact with the battlefield. The task for the general is to establish the strategy, communicate its implications at the right level, then provide the resources for the next unit of command to achieve. I sense that we might be starting to get that balance right. Buckley might have been too detailed and prescriptive before. It is just a hunch, however - I do not have enough evidence to know for sure.

Occasionally some faddish, combat-ignorant idiot decides to try and turn the military into an encounter group or a slave to some daft idealistic political social policy. Lives are lost, careers mismanaged, and eventually people who know what they are doing are reinstated.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:04 am
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ronrat wrote:
They tried this rubbish in Defence in the 90s with all the team building stuff. The trouble was the entire focus of miltary training is team building, group and individual problem solving, leadership, discipline, etc. So we had all these Pollyannas and the like trying to tell 25 year service old veterans who had risen through the ranks and were now Senior NCOs being told how to deal with situations they encountered every day of their working lives. A lot of tears and "why are you so mean" etc. In the end they dumped it as not cost effective, no benefit, divisive and time wasting.

If you think you know it all because you're a 25 year service old veteran who has risen up through the ranks, I would question your commitment for learning new ideas on leadership and team building. Military generals in Sir William Slim and Sir John Monash never stopped learning in life and never feared taking on new tasks. Both were avid readers who wrote extensively and had large libraries. Monash was an engineer and academic who ran power stations in Victoria, while Slim wrote detective stories and rose to Governer General of Australia. Neither would have succeeded on the battlefield had they accepted conventional army thinking.
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K 



Joined: 09 Sep 2011


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:07 am
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Bailey Hendy on his father, Trevor:

"He tries to go all "life coach" on me whenever I get angry and says things like, "Bailey, your body and your mind are in two different places," or "You're in an energy field, you're in a bad mood." I just walk away or say, "Dad, stop talking to me right now!""
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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:07 am
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Quote:
If you think you know it all because you're a 25 year service old veteran who has risen up through the ranks, I would question your commitment for learning new ideas on leadership and team building. Military generals in Sir William Slim and Sir John Monash never stopped learning in life and never feared taking on new tasks. Both were avid readers who wrote extensively and had large libraries. Monash was an engineer and academic who ran power stations in Victoria, while Slim wrote detective stories and rose to Governer General of Australia. Neither would have succeeded on the battlefield had they accepted conventional army thinking.


I doubt that exceptopnal people like Monash would have worried about some person straight out of university as a person to follow.He was a meticulous planner and unlike many of the idiot English Eton Generals realised that mechanised war was different. That is wasn't fighting zulus any more.It was machine guns and tanks and aircraft. He earned respect from his men by small things like ensuring hot meals and plans written down to section level. The men realised they did matter were not colonial cannon fodder.

If you have ever seen the film Heartbreak Ridge it is pertinent. The Gunnys job was to train his squad to improvise, support each other and minimise risk. His Commander was a dick and he knew it. So he trained them to bond by hating him. Until the penny dropped.

Long serving SNCOs know they are not the fount of all knowledge. They leave that to the commisioned officer. Their job is to find if there is weaklink and fix it. And set an example. And provide guidance to junior officers to some extent.

It is not dissimilar to a football team.The leadership group sets an example and provides encouragement and direction for the younger players. And feedback to the coaching staff. The coaching staff is to provide the tactics and the training regimes and tell the group what they done.

An outside group such as LT is a distraction and can only confuse young players who are inexperienced in life as well as high level football.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:13 am
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Cannot set meta predicates.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:19 am
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ronrat wrote:
.He was a meticulous planner and unlike many of the idiot English Eton Generals realised that mechanised war was different. That is wasn't fighting zulus any more.It was machine guns and tanks and aircraft. He earned respect from his men by small things like ensuring hot meals and plans written down to section level. The men realised they did matter were not colonial cannon fodder.


We’re way off topic, but I do wish we would get over this silly Blackadder / Peter Weir caricature. If you read the history deeply, you’ll find that some of the British generals were fools, but very few. Most were highly competent men dealing with a strategic morass : attacking an enemy which was happy to sit pat when all technological and supply advantages (early in the war) lay with the defence. Monash was a great Australian, but he was not the only general in that war to develop a theory of combined arms. The maligned British generals of WW1 took an army of untrained conscripts into battle against Germany’s experienced land army and wore it down to defeat. Their capacity to learn from mistakes, rethink their tactics, and innovate (eg the tank itself) was extraordinary for the time.

Australian officers, though not Eton trained, were just as capable of perseverance in failure as the British (eg Brig-Gen Antill, an Australian,who commanded the light horse at the Nek, but strangely acquired a British accent in the film).

Australians have so much to be proud of in the brave efforts of the Anzac corps, and they did have a particular reputation for enterprise and initiative. We don’t need a colonial chip on shoulder to make them stand taller.

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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:28 am
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Newfoundland and 5533 diggers at Fromelles may have argued somewhat differently. And ANZAC is all capitals.

Anyway the point is would Monash and Slim have listened to Leading Teams. I doubt it.

The arsehole Alan Jeans at least had it right about sausages. If you don't know about that quote look it up.

An example is this kid at Manly in the NRL. His teammates have refused to play with him. Has a big head and a big mouth and now I think in his third club. These physcho balle experts to get back on topic would have said something like "what do you think of XXXX' The Captain takes exception at what he says and it lingers. Forever.

There is a big difference between say Pendles saying to a first year player on the field "next time I say handball forward you do it " to a young player saying "I would have kicked it but Pendles didn't shepherd". to a whole group.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:59 am
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ronrat wrote:
Newfoundland and 5533 diggers at Fromelles may have argued somewhat differently. And ANZAC is all capitals.

Anyway the point is would Monash and Slim have listened to Leading Teams. I doubt it.

The arsehole Alan Jeans at least had it right about sausages. If you don't know about that quote look it up.

An example is this kid at Manly in the NRL. His teammates have refused to play with him. Has a big head and a big mouth and now I think in his third club. These physcho balle experts to get back on topic would have said something like "what do you think of XXXX' The Captain takes exception at what he says and it lingers. Forever.

There is a big difference between say Pendles saying to a first year player on the field "next time I say handball forward you do it " to a young player saying "I would have kicked it but Pendles didn't shepherd". to a whole group.


Judging from your first paragraph, your mind seems closed to the deeper, complex truth of the ANZAC (happy now?) story. Anyway, this not the time or the place.

In any event, I agree with you that LTs would generally be scorned by the military, who understand the difference between what it takes to be fashionable, and what it takes to survive under fire.

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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 am
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ronrat wrote:
Newfoundland and 5533 diggers at Fromelles may have argued somewhat differently. And ANZAC is all capitals.

Anyway the point is would Monash and Slim have listened to Leading Teams. I doubt it.

The arsehole Alan Jeans at least had it right about sausages. If you don't know about that quote look it up.

An example is this kid at Manly in the NRL. His teammates have refused to play with him. Has a big head and a big mouth and now I think in his third club. These physcho balle experts to get back on topic would have said something like "what do you think of XXXX' The Captain takes exception at what he says and it lingers. Forever.

There is a big difference between say Pendles saying to a first year player on the field "next time I say handball forward you do it " to a young player saying "I would have kicked it but Pendles didn't shepherd". to a whole group.

No one human being has a monopoly of all knowledge. You listen to people who offer you their advice, take in what you find applicable to your job and apply those things to your work. Leading Teams may not have been a success at the time Buckley introduced it, but who's to say that Buckley is now a better coach from having introduced it? Also Buckley has travelled overseas in the off season to study other sporting codes and learn from other successful coaches. You never know how applying knowledge from one sporting code to another can help our club, but there may come a time when Buckley is coaching us in an AFL grand final, that the difference between winning and losing could be decided by a piece of knowledge he picked up from overseas or from Leading Teams.
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:03 am
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Mugwump wrote:
ronrat wrote:
Newfoundland and 5533 diggers at Fromelles may have argued somewhat differently. And ANZAC is all capitals.

Anyway the point is would Monash and Slim have listened to Leading Teams. I doubt it.

The arsehole Alan Jeans at least had it right about sausages. If you don't know about that quote look it up.

An example is this kid at Manly in the NRL. His teammates have refused to play with him. Has a big head and a big mouth and now I think in his third club. These physcho balle experts to get back on topic would have said something like "what do you think of XXXX' The Captain takes exception at what he says and it lingers. Forever.

There is a big difference between say Pendles saying to a first year player on the field "next time I say handball forward you do it " to a young player saying "I would have kicked it but Pendles didn't shepherd". to a whole group.


Judging from your first paragraph, your mind seems closed to the deeper, complex truth of the ANZAC (happy now?) story. Anyway, this not the time or the place.

In any event, I agree with you that LTs would generally be scorned by the military, who understand the difference between what it takes to be fashionable, and what it takes to survive under fire.

Separate issues here. Men on the ground know what it takes to survive under fire (just as footballers know how to survive on a football field), but men need leading just as footballers need leading and the military don't alway get it right (read a history of military campaigns) just as football coaches often fail in their job to lead their men.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:32 am
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^ I doubt you read my post above. The military have a clear model of leadership development and strategy execution, (the latter called mission command). No model gets everything right in a situation so large-scale, frictional, lethal, unpredictable and uncontrollable as combat. That is not the point. My point was that the military do not use a leading teams approach as such, because it is not appropriate to that environment. Occasionally, however, some faddist tries to make them do so because it is popular in civilian life. It does not last long, according to my (fairly numerous) contacts in the British Army. My other point - way off topic, but I didn’t raise it - was that much of what we “know” about the First World War is actually nationalistic myth-making.

I don’t know if LT works for footballers. It might. It clearly did not hurt the Swans. It might have no effect. It might be such a turn off for some that they leave (there were rumours that was the case with D Thomas and Heath Shaw). It’s impossible to tell from the outside where it has worked and not worked for Buckley.

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