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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
No problems, I have no doubt the players weren't receptive, that stuff comes from a different generation.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Telling anyone that you'll be a shit parent because you were raised by a single parent deserves a punch straight to the face every day. |
What’s more, the entire notion that this kind of "negging" is a useful psychological tool is ridiculous. It reminds me of stuff I’ve heard about the Landmark Forum (check out a documentary on them here: https://archive.org/details/VoyageDesNouveauxGourous), a kind of weekend self-help seminar where you go to basically be torn to shreds in front of your fellow participants, which supposedly makes you reconsider your life and come out a better person on the other side.
The real aim is to make the participant an emotional wreck, which in turn makes them feel like it’s an important process (if it hurts, it must be good for you). They then get you to sign up for more expensive workshops and encourage you to recruit friends and family members (just as Collective Mind effectively did by giving scripts to the players to read out to their partners and the media). Stuff like that is a pyramid scheme at best, cult at worst. No qualified, competent therapist would employ these techniques. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | Not arguing RB, just pointing out to Doris who said they were the same group. They aren't.
These kind of team building charlatans have been around since at least the 80's. Some of the psychobabble can work, to a degree, depending on the individual, but what people are prepared to take now is quite different to the 80's.
Having said that, some of the shit that Eddie and the other Crows apparently copped would have had the instructors punched out back in the 80's.
Telling anyone that you'll be a shit parent because you were raised by a single parent deserves a punch straight to the face every day. |
You are right on all fronts stui, except this T-Group stuff actually began in the 60s and was soon discredited in academic circles, as being potentially very damaging. But you are correct that it had something of a resurgence in the 80s. |
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Uncle Jack 
Joined: 17 Apr 2019
Location: Canberra
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The other part mentioned by Eddie goes to cultural insensitivity. Having indigenous players hurling abuse at their "Uncle"- their elder, was a very big deal that seems to have been misunderstood/diminished/neglected by the team running the camp. To then be removed from the leadership group after speaking up for the hurt done to the indigenous players would be a bitter pill to swallow not only for Eddie, but for all the indigenous players.
It seems the club's way of "moving on from this issue" was to move Eddie along. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That really does add a whole layer onto this. With these things you can never be sure whether it was the only cause, but it really does seem like the guy who rocked the boat got punished. One thing Whateley has asked a number of times, and I think it’s a great question, is could this have been stopped partway through? Could anyone have stood up and said that it wasn’t a good idea? Or is genuine dissent impossible in football clubs? The analogy to the Essendon doping situation is unavoidable here.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mr Miyagi
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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| David wrote: | | That really does add a whole layer onto this. With these things you can never be sure whether it was the only cause, but it really does seem like the guy who rocked the boat got punished. One thing Whateley has asked a number of times, and I think it’s a great question, is could this have been stopped partway through? Could anyone have stood up and said that it wasn’t a good idea? Or is genuine dissent impossible in football clubs? The analogy to the Essendon doping situation is unavoidable here. |
Who was the Essendon player who was ostracised when he spoke up? I forget his name. He was basically out of the team and treated like he had monkey pox.
We supporters can’t fathom the intensity and pressure of being in an AFL team. It’s often off the charts. So to cop the psycho babble bs on top of all the other pressure not only to perform as an elite footballer but also be on the team bus and not rock it is huge. And being aboriginal and a parent on top of that, I feel for Betts. |
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neil 
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland
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^Zaharaskis
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Carlscum 120 years being cheating scum |
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Mr Miyagi
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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That’s the one. Yeah he was screwed over, and by the AFLPA and AFL as much as by Essendon. |
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SwansWay
Joined: 13 May 2015
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| That's why it angers me when posters refer to the players at Essendon as cheats...those players deserve our unreserved sympathy. |
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lazzadesilva
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
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| Uncle Jack wrote: | | The other part mentioned by Eddie goes to cultural insensitivity. Having indigenous players hurling abuse at their "Uncle"- their elder, was a very big deal that seems to have been misunderstood/diminished/neglected by the team running the camp. To then be removed from the leadership group after speaking up for the hurt done to the indigenous players would be a bitter pill to swallow not only for Eddie, but for all the indigenous players. |
Hence my confusion here. I would have thought that Taylor Walker of all the players would have supported, identified and empathised with Eddie because of his own indigenous background & heritage 🙄 I find it really baffling TBH.
_________________
I term the current Collingwood attack based strategy “Unceasing Waves” like on a stormy and windy day with rough seas. A Perfect Storm ☔️ |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The same Taylor Walker who was suspended for a racial slur directed at an Indigenous SANFL player last year? I can't see why; in fact I couldn't be less surprised that he was one of the first to fall in line.
| SwansWay wrote: | | That's why it angers me when posters refer to the players at Essendon as cheats...those players deserve our unreserved sympathy. |
Absolutely.
By the way, MM, I think the player you're thinking of is Kyle Reimers, who blew the whistle after falling out with the club. Zaharakis was the only one who personally refused an injection (due to a phobia of needles), but as far as I know didn't otherwise speak up at the time or face any consequences for his refusal. While Reimers had already left the club when he spoke up, when you read how he was talked about after doing so by a former teammate (none other than current Giants coach Mark McVeigh, who surely must feel pretty embarrassed about what he said now), you get a strong impression of what the culture was like and what would have happened to dissenters internally:
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/former-bomber-attacks-exafl-teammate-20130206-2dxra.html
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mr Miyagi
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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I thought Reimers spoke up while still there and got traded after?
More to come on Adelaide apparently. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | That really does add a whole layer onto this. With these things you can never be sure whether it was the only cause, but it really does seem like the guy who rocked the boat got punished. One thing Whateley has asked a number of times, and I think it’s a great question, is could this have been stopped partway through? Could anyone have stood up and said that it wasn’t a good idea? Or is genuine dissent impossible in football clubs? The analogy to the Essendon doping situation is unavoidable here. |
This was supposed to be a team building thing that had the highest level support in the club. You either bought in or you weren't in. That simple.
Anyone who stood up during the camp would have been shot down. It would be like fronting the coach in front of the playing group and saying you didn't believe in the game plan. Short cut to the seconds.
Josh Jenkins has apparently came out in support of Eddie, mirroring his experience.
So, No. Unless a significant number of players at the camp all stood up together, it wasn't going to stop. If a handful said it was bullshit, likely they'd be sent home and their papers stamped seconds only and delist or trade.
Years ago I went on a "team building" thing which was about a proposed restructure. After 2 days of Myer Briggs and other psych stuff, everyone was asked to stand in one of two rectangles on the floor, depending on where they saw their future. I stood in the middle, called bullshit and said I don't think either is my future. Didn't go down well. Everyone except one person dutifuly went to their box except one who joined me.
Everyone's papers were stamped based on the box they stood in except mine and the one who stood beside me. We lasted past the biatch and were proven right.
That wouldn't have worked in a Footy club.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Jenkins’ testimony here: https://youtu.be/kRFr3wbZ0mE
Seems he was the main one to speak up before, during and after the camp, and was punished for it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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By the way, the "Wolfgang" Jenkins refers to who was in charge of the harness exercise is Wolfgang Wildgrace, who was at the time part of that Workplace Wellbeing group I posted about before. Here’s his own professional website, including one of the programs he runs, "Mancraft": https://www.efptaustralia.com/mancraft-2-day-residential-program/
And his life story: https://www.efptaustralia.com/blog/
Wildgrace (clearly a deed poll beneficiary whose own chosen name speaks volumes about his self-regard) claims on his website’s blog to have saved the lives of twelve people in a hostage situation in the ‘90s, which led to these astonishing new abilities:
| Wolfgang Wildgrace wrote: | | In order to understand the impact, this ordeal had on my mind I now had to learn who this new person was that was being revealed to me and what the fudge had just happened to my life. I could not function the same way anymore, my senses were strangely heightened, I had memories of lifetimes, sensory skills that defied normal logic, a sense of purpose and a thirst for change. This was not me, who was this person? it felt as if my mind and my body had been hijacked and I was becoming this new improved version. |
Basically, the guy running the fateful exercise seems to believe he became a superhuman. Anyway, years of self-reflection passed, and he came to a new realisation:
| Wolfgang Wildgrace wrote: | So it was apparent to me that I needed to lean into a new edge and really listen with compassion to what was really being said as irrational as it may be. This was the voice of my inner child.
Meaning– Inner child In popular psychology and analytical psychology, the inner child is an individual’s childlike aspect. It includes what a person learned as a child, before puberty. The inner child is often conceived as a semi-independent subpersonality subordinate to the waking conscious mind. |
This is Jungian psychobabble (Carl Jung, of course, being the guy who took some of Freud’s crazier assumptions and said "hold my beer"). My understanding is that some legitimate psychologists practise what’s called inner child therapy, but it also attracts more than its fair share of new age quacks. While our formative experiences of course shape who we are, the notion that we have a child alter ego inside of us making decisions – in this guy’s words, a "semi-independent subpersonality" – is nonsense. It also seems to be a crucial component of his work.
Anyway, here’s how it all wound up:
| Wolfgang Wildgrace wrote: | | When I started to slowly venture back to working as a therapist, I decided that I would infuse my own documented self-discoveries into my work practice. This collected wisdom grew to become my guide for students, It has since grown and evolved into what we now know today as my guide for Emotional Fitness Personal Training™ |
There are only really two things you need to notice here. One, he thinks his own "self-discoveries" constitute wisdom and an entire new branch of therapy. That’s what a guru says, not a qualified or responsible therapist. Secondly, the ™ at the end means you can expect a hefty price tag for accessing this wisdom.
I’d ask this: in the realm of science, would you be more likely to trust the findings of a scientist who (a) works within the framework of established science, consults latest developments and findings from peers, and considers themselves part of a broader research project; or (b) comes up with an entirely new method based on their own individual wisdom and trademarks it? Legitimate researchers working on cancer treatments aren’t working on Beat Cancer the Easy Way™; they’re working on papers that will be published in mainstream journals and inform other researchers’ work. So if you’re in charge of important things like other people’s welfare, do you really want to bring in people from the second category to do intensive work on them of any kind?
This wasn’t the first time cranks have been welcomed in to a football club, and it sadly probably isn’t the last. But I hope this disastrous camp serves as a valuable lesson, and that clubs recognise what went wrong even if WorkSafe SA and the AFL aren’t willing to explain it to them. Because it’s as simple as this: next time, get a boring, regular old psychologist (or, really, any competent medical professional, as the Adelaide club doctor seems to have been) to assess the claims of a program and its facilitators and work out whether they’re pseuds before signing up for their intensive course. Maybe that’s too much to expect from a football club, but it wouldn’t be a bad starting point.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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