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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ I see no reason why these are incompatible. Id have thought that the minimum sentence of three months was reasonable, given the good behaviour since the offence.
The job of the prison system is due punishment of responsible individuals, in an austere manner which should lead them to reflect that crime does not pay. Rehabilitation is the job of social workers after people leave prison. I agree that we could do far more on genuine rehab. |
how about community service for 3 months, and 6 months monitoring?
As for do they deserve extra protection, yes they do. They signed up to be care givers in the most horrific, painful, distressing, devastating times of peoples lives, they go in to help, to give comfort, to save lives, there is is no part of the job description that says they should also need a self defense course.
Should they be able to walk away and not treat ungrateful violent arseholes? would they choose to walk away?
"and the sad facts of their lives did not surprise me. I am sure that many people who commit violent crimes have such a background, and we have created a society where this type of background, once relatively rare. has become common."
true, what is also true is not all people with this kind of background turn to violence, drugs, alcohol abuse. As a society we need to stop allowing excuses, and start teaching responsibility.
Not sure about rehabilitation being the job of social workers after the prisoner is released, surely that needs to begin while the criminal is an inmate? Too late once they are out the gate. Show them a reason in Jail to make them want to rehabilitate. Stop handing them non essentials such as TV etc on a platter without them working for it. you know, like the honest people have to do. Certainly more needs to be done in regards to rehabilitation.
But more needs to be done education wise long before they get to being teenage delinquents, and gravitating to more serious crime. Then maybe teachers would feel safer in their jobs too.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ its the society we have made, TP. There is no way to fix those things without challenging some deep beliefs that are so deeply-rooted they are probably beyond fixing.
We are living in the afterglow of a moral system that we no longer believe. Like a balloon leaking air, it is keeping us aloft, but it will not do so forever.
On the subject of rehabilitation, Its a nice sounding idea but few can demonstrate that it works in prison. The Norway example will be pulled out here, but Norway is a very, very rich society with a strong, homogeneous culture and very low crime to begin with. In the latter respect it is a little as Britain was until 1960, and the Uk had similarly low crime and low recidivism rates in those days. Singapores prison system is harsh, and it has a similar recidivism rate to Norways, so I suspect its all about the wider culture, rather than the specific system. I doubt Norway is really the model our liberals purport it to be. Still, I would have no objection to trying the Norway and a more austere model in a fair trial to see the effects in our society.
In our large, lawless, poorer societies, I think the efforts need to go into employment support and community monitoring post prison.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Tue May 22, 2018 10:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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An election year and an employment field that is heavily unionised.
Coincidence, I think not.
Andrews is not being impartial on the issue and it's the exact reason why there needs to be clear separation between the state and the courts.
Mandatory sentencing is a punishment dictated by politicians when the only punishment that should be handed down are by those educated in law and vastly experienced in the justice system.
The reality is their isn't a whole bunch of people in society who believe it's okay to assault emergency workers or anyone else or go out on the town looking for trouble.
The simple truth is emergency workers are often exposed to people at their worst moments and not in control of there faculties because of alcohol, drugs or serious mental health issues.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Swoop, I think you misunderstand the principle of separation of powers between the judiciary and the legislature. Courts, judges and lawyers are not a law unto themselves. If the people want a mandatory sentence for (say) murder, the politicians are the people to put that into law, or put in place a framework to set it. The judges, who are not elected, have no role in telling the people what sentences they are allowed to have for a given crime, unless Parliament tries to act unconstitutionally.
The principle of separation allows the parliament to set minimum tariffs for certain crimes. What politicians cannot do, and rightly so, is interfere in specific cases once a law has been framed and enacted.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
yeah, but otherwise I agree with him
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| Quote: | Separate devils advocate type question:
Why should assaulting an emergency services worker be worse than assaulting anyone else and attract a higher punishment? At least ESP's have some training in dealing with violent and aggressive people as that's a part of the job. If these women had assaulted a cafe waiter (who has no training) who refused to serve them because they were off their chops, why is that not as serious as assaulting an Ambo? |
You mean like a footballer threatening to stab a waitress with chopsticks and instead of being charged
Wins every award plus a flag in footy.
A leading Journalist blames Swanny who was not even there and discounts his criminal father for shaping him.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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On Friday in ED I was kicked in the sternum (ziphoid process) by an anti-social male who was quite psychotic as well. He knew right from wrong but he was also mad as the mad misogymist monk (well maybe be not that mad). Nonetheless it happended. Pain was 3/10 not so bad but the shock value was much higher.
Earlier Police and ambulance had to bring another person in to get their fortnightly injection of anti psychotic meds. The nurses who came from the clinic gave him his injection, throughout he was yelling abuse and screaming invective reporting he is being raped; this is also at a really high decibel level. We had security with police to make giving his injection OK. Fortunately, we had a psychaitrist nearby who could quickly review him to go back onto a mental health order and he got escorted from the ED by security.
On Monday a young woman assualted a nurse through kicking. A horendous history of abuse of baing a voctim if chikd pon, being shacked up with a male 50 year solder. Now off her head due to ICE. One of the ED nurses makes matters worse b acase she has as much empathy as a dead mullett and deals with deiffucelt people in a punitive manner - anothet issue. I was trying to assi thr nurses. Was medcated but she needed restaining to the bedside.
22/5/18: I was coughed on by an asylum seeker with the flu. That was the worst of the lot. I told him once to cover his mouth & he chose not to. This was with the police. No sense of "other" whatsoever. POst assessment I let him go as he was not acute but odd.
Saw another with the police in a public place today 22/5/18 who just swore at me as he often does: I've seen him a fair bit over the distance (well known frequent presenter) he uses 000 services as a taxi service & I never admit him to hospital which he wants. I advise the ambo's & police to ignore his behaviour to the extent they can, He makes threats such as : If you don't do what I want I will suicide....He was not suicidal but say sits on the edge of a ralway platform dagngling his legs over the train tracks. ( It helps when you know the frequent presenters, know their management plans & do the proper checks before you assess any person.
Manadory sentencing here is the fault of the Libs & Andrews is having to match the hysteria amplified by the media for the gullible. Pollies can't afford to be seen to be soft on crime.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Wed May 23, 2018 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| watt price tully wrote: | On Friday in ED I was kicked in the steunim (ziphoid process) by an anti-social male who was quite psychotic as well. h knew right from wrong but he was also mad an the mad misogymist monk (well maybe be not that mad). Nonetheless it happended. pain was 3/10 not so bad but the shock value was much higher.
Part of the issue also has to do with my iinexperienced ED staff but that's another issue.
Earlier Police and ambulance had to bring another person in to get their fortnightly injection of anti psychotic meds. The nurses who came from the clinic gave him his injection, all thw hile he was yelling abuse and screaming invective reporting he i sbaing rpaed this is also at a really high decibel level. We have a gret seciruty with police to make giving his injection OK. Fortunately, we had a psychaitrist nearby who could quickly review him to go back onto a mental health order and he got escorted from the Ed by security.
On Monday a young woman assualted a nurse through kicking. A horendous history of abuse of baing a voctim if chikd pon, being shacked up with a male 50 year solder. Now off her head due to ICE. One of the ED nurses makes matters worse b acase she has as much empathy as a dead mullett and deals with deiffucelt people in a punitive manner - anothet issue. I was trying to assi thr nurses. Was medcated but she needed restaining to the bedside.
Today I was coughed on by an asylum seeker with the flu. That was the worst of the lot. I told him once to cover his mouth & he chose not to. THis was with the police. No sense of "other" whatsoever. Let him go as he was not acute but odd.
Saw another with the police in a public place today who just swore at me as he often does I've seen him a fair bit over the dostance (well known frequent presenter) he uses 000 services as a taxi service & I never admit him to hospital which he wants and advise the ambo's & police to ignore to the extent they can, his behaaviour and threats to meet his perceived needs met: If you don't do what I want I will suicide....He was not suicidal. ( It helps when you know the frequesnt presenters, know their management plans & do the proper checks before you see them
Manadory sentencing here is the fault of the Libs & Andrews is having to match the hysteria amplified by the media for the gullible. Pollies can't afford to be seen to be soft on crime. |
The Time Machine is cool. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: | On Friday in ED I was kicked in the sternum (ziphoid process) by an anti-social male who was quite psychotic as well. He knew right from wrong but he was also mad as the mad misogymist monk (well maybe be not that mad). Nonetheless it happended. Pain was 3/10 not so bad but the shock value was much higher.
Earlier Police and ambulance had to bring another person in to get their fortnightly injection of anti psychotic meds. The nurses who came from the clinic gave him his injection, throughout he was yelling abuse and screaming invective reporting he is being raped; this is also at a really high decibel level. We had security with police to make giving his injection OK. Fortunately, we had a psychaitrist nearby who could quickly review him to go back onto a mental health order and he got escorted from the ED by security.
On Monday a young woman assualted a nurse through kicking. A horendous history of abuse of baing a voctim if chikd pon, being shacked up with a male 50 year solder. Now off her head due to ICE. One of the ED nurses makes matters worse b acase she has as much empathy as a dead mullett and deals with deiffucelt people in a punitive manner - anothet issue. I was trying to assi thr nurses. Was medcated but she needed restaining to the bedside.
22/5/18: I was coughed on by an asylum seeker with the flu. That was the worst of the lot. I told him once to cover his mouth & he chose not to. This was with the police. No sense of "other" whatsoever. POst assessment I let him go as he was not acute but odd.
Saw another with the police in a public place today 22/5/18 who just swore at me as he often does: I've seen him a fair bit over the distance (well known frequent presenter) he uses 000 services as a taxi service & I never admit him to hospital which he wants. I advise the ambo's & police to ignore his behaviour to the extent they can, He makes threats such as : If you don't do what I want I will suicide....He was not suicidal but say sits on the edge of a ralway platform dagngling his legs over the train tracks. ( It helps when you know the frequent presenters, know their management plans & do the proper checks before you assess any person.
Manadory sentencing here is the fault of the Libs & Andrews is having to match the hysteria amplified by the media for the gullible. Pollies can't afford to be seen to be soft on crime. |
But Im sure the waitress in the other story goes through this everyday too, what are you whinging about!
Ps I hope the sarcasm in my post is dripping though your screens guys!
Im sure all these people have their story, we all have stories, some better some worse, everybody has some kind of baggage, and you can knock daytime telly talk show hosts as much as you want but something has Stuckey with me for nearly 30 years, a simple statement that made me stop feeling sorry for myself and get my act together - your a grown up now, your happiness is your responsibility, when will you stop blaming your upbringing and get out there and own it?
Yep sometimes shit gets overwhelming, but that doesnt mean you get to take it out on everyone else.
Personal responsibility, keep your hands (and feet) to yourselves, and be accountable for your actions. Who has had the perfect life? There is always someone with a sadder story that is not kicking emergency workers in the chest. Or even the odd waitress.
And dont $$%^%%$ tell me Im lucky Im strong, because luck had sweet **** all to do with it!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Of course no one should be assaulted. but the sentencing right now is a joke. And yes I do believe that certain sectors should have a mandatory sentence attached, because theyre is no ifs or buts about it. Im 99% sure that an emergency service worker will not want a person who reflexes and accidentally kicks a responder due to pain. Far different from lashing out a full blown assault. And Im really over the drugs excuse. Yes it is. I dont care if its an addiction, if you know your a mean addict, dont take drugs where its a problem, just like a mean drunk should make that distinction. Everybody has choices, and not too many get a needle in them the first time without a choice.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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Everyone agrees that no emergency personnel should be assaulted whilst working. No one should be a victim of crime as well. In saying that a person who is affected by drugs/alcohol and who is suffering mental issues and is having an episode with emergency personnel isn't all of a sudden stop what they are doing and say, "shit, I better stop as I will go to jail".
On the suggested new law, the guy a few weeks ago who refused to let the police in (mental Health Check) could be charge with assaulting police as he pushed, punched and kicked them as they dragged him out. Please tell me what benefit as a society have if we put him in jail?
This law will achieve nothing in the short and long term other than grab votes off the simpletons. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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So on the one hand we could have a situation where an individual is charged with rape because the accuser wasn't able to give informed consent because they were to inebriated and yet this same inebriated person could now be sentenced to prison for assaulting an emergency service worker.
It makes no sense that in one scenario the persons physical and mental incapacity can make them a victim and in another it can them a perpetrator.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| swoop42 wrote: | So on the one hand we could have a situation where an individual is charged with rape because the accuser wasn't able to give informed consent because they were to inebriated and yet this same inebriated person could now be sentenced to prison for assaulting an emergency service worker.
It makes no sense that in one scenario the persons physical and mental incapacity can make them a victim and in another it can them a perpetrator. |
The informed consent one is really the outlier. In every other circumstance I can think of, being drunk doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Culprit wrote: | Everyone agrees that no emergency personnel should be assaulted whilst working. No one should be a victim of crime as well. In saying that a person who is affected by drugs/alcohol and who is suffering mental issues and is having an episode with emergency personnel isn't all of a sudden stop what they are doing and say, "shit, I better stop as I will go to jail".
On the suggested new law, the guy a few weeks ago who refused to let the police in (mental Health Check) could be charge with assaulting police as he pushed, punched and kicked them as they dragged him out. Please tell me what benefit as a society have if we put him in jail?
This law will achieve nothing in the short and long term other than grab votes off the simpletons. |
maybe if there were stringent laws in place they would think before they get themselves in that situation. maybe if they had learnt self discipline and respect for others when they were younger, they might make better decisions even under the influence. ie if you cant handle it, dont do it.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| swoop42 wrote: | So on the one hand we could have a situation where an individual is charged with rape because the accuser wasn't able to give informed consent because they were to inebriated and yet this same inebriated person could now be sentenced to prison for assaulting an emergency service worker.
It makes no sense that in one scenario the persons physical and mental incapacity can make them a victim and in another it can them a perpetrator. |
Thats a really interesting point. I guess on one level, its a question of vulnerability vs culpability: the rape victims responsibility doesnt really come into it, because the mere fact that they arent consenting to sex (because of being insufficiently conscious) is sufficient to make them victims.
Culpability for a criminal act is a rather trickier area: in that regard, the actual crime has been committed by the person under the influence. But working out the extent of culpability is complicated, because in many other cases of impairment through medication or intellectual disability, or even if your drink has been spiked it likely would be treated as a mitigating, if not necessarily wholly exculpatory, factor. So it does seem clear that were partially punishing the act of deliberately becoming intoxicated, which does seem paradoxical.
Ultimately, though, maybe strict drink-driving punishments (and the like) are wholly about deterrence. We know that its not a malicious act to get behind the wheel drunk at worst, its reckless and negligent; at best, its an innocent misjudgement but the potential consequences of doing so are so severe that we need to send a strong deterring message to society. Same goes for drunken one-punch attacks, etc.
I dont know if thats a satisfying response, but I think it at least explains why this apparent double standard exists.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Wed May 23, 2018 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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