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Austria on the right track.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:17 am
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
No, my opposition is to them (seemingly gratuitously) alienating a minority by clamping down on their ability to practise their faith. Suggesting that my problem here is with democracy is a bit of a cheap shot – remind me to wheel that one out next time an elected government makes a decision you don’t like.


For the avoidance of doubt, I was not suggesting that you have a problem with democracy. I was just making the point that immigration and cultural distance have been excluded from respectable political discourse by the elites in democracies for far too long. So I consider Austria’s preparedness to manage the issue creditable.

The action is not “gratuitous”, however. That word means uncalled for, unprovoked. Islam is a powerful transnational ideology, associated with many massacres in the last twenty years and mounting a massive incursion across Southern and Western Europe. Nobody wants to manage Hinduism, which is no doubt practised in Áustria. Islam demonstrably presents a clear challenge to Western values and traditions. One can choose to ignore that challenge, but it’s not gratuitous to focus on its limitation.


The biggest concern is the concept of “limitation”, and what it means (or can mean) in this context. We know what Skids and others would like to see at the end of “the right path” (likely mass deportations, internment camps, immigration bans and suppression of the freedom to practice religion). The question is whether even intermediate steps like Austria’s are already starting to eat away at fundamental societal concepts like religious freedom and if they’re going to be part of a broader move of treating a minority as second-class citizens, and what the benefit of such an undermining of principles is.

As always, because we are not naive and because we understand the nature of politics and power, we have to also wonder whether such steps have emerged from a clear cost-benefit analysis (with the costs of “limitations” potentially including oppression, ostracisation and alienation), or whether they’re just cynically shoring up the xenophobic vote. I’m not overly familiar with Austria’s domestic political situation since the last election, but there are certainly some ugly things happening in parts of Eastern Europe and Russia right now – that’s not a path I’d want to see any society go down.

(Just to be clear, my comment about democracy was a response to MM’s post.)

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:43 am
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There's also a utopianism about it that can only disappoint and make people angrier, too. Life isn't getting simpler, population density isn't going to be wound back, pay for routine work isn't going up, and diversity isn't going to be reduced — Muslim bashing or not, legal and ethical white anting or not. So just what is being offered of benefit here?
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:00 pm
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^ We should do nothing very specific about the people who live here now, just afford them the normal liberties we apply across our society. I would use anti-sedition laws to bear down on any coded support for terrorism by people who are resident, but that’s about it.

What we can do is restrict and control who comes here, and thereby control the rate of intake and installed weight of any given group. There are many reasons to do this. One reason is to avoid importing millions who profess a totalising, literally murderous ideology (read the book) hostile to our history and values. A second reason is to control the political influence of a religion which has a long history of cruel and theocratic political failure. There is nothing “utopian” about wishing to control our borders and restrict immigrant numbers, though it is very late in the day to start doing so.

Those who wish to destroy the uniqueness and particularity of our form of life, by turning Western civilisation into a flag of convenience, or making us hostage to a large Islamic voting bloc, will say that borders cannot be controlled ; but the “inevitable” “complexity” and “diversity” of multiculturalism leaves little mark on most of the non-Western world. It is not inevitable in Japan, or Iran, or Singapore, or China. Only the West, which was subverted by an insidious, libertarian Marxism in the 1960s, is intent on “inevitably” acquiring the culture of the airport hall.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mountains Magpie 



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:02 pm
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Since the ABC leans so far to the left if it were our Continent it would fall into the Indian Ocean, here's another article, maybe a shade or two better balanced:

https://www.afp.com/en/news/23/austria-expel-60-imams-close-7-mosques-doc-15q01p9

So, 150 troublemakers out of a section of their society numbering 700,000/360,000/117,000 depending on how you want to read it. Sounds like knocking something on the head before it becomes a greater problem.

This sort of thing is a natural backlash IMHO. I think there'll be a hell of a lot more of this before 2030.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:12 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
^ We should do nothing very specific about the people who live here now, just afford them the normal liberties we apply across our society. I would use anti-sedition laws to bear down on any coded support for terrorism by people who are resident, but that’s about it.

What we can do is restrict and control who comes here, and thereby control the rate of intake and installed weight of any given group. There are many reasons to do this. One reason is to avoid importing millions who profess a totalising, literally murderous ideology (read the book) hostile to our history and values. A second reason is to control the political influence of a religion which has a long history of cruel and theocratic political failure. There is nothing “utopian” about wishing to control our borders and restrict immigrant numbers, though it is very late in the day to start doing so.

Those who wish to destroy the uniqueness and particularity of our form of life, by turning Western civilisation into a flag of convenience, or making us hostage to a large Islamic voting bloc, will say that borders cannot be controlled ; but the “inevitable” “complexity” and “diversity” of multiculturalism leaves little mark on most of the non-Western world. It is not inevitable in Japan, or Iran, or Singapore, or China. Only the West, which was subverted by an insidious, libertarian Marxism in the 1960s, is intent on “inevitably” acquiring the culture of the airport hall.

But none of that emotive construction is needed; just seek the stricter control of immigration you want. There's no need to confuse terrorists and extremists with average Joe Muslims through the term "Islamisation" in an effort to override the system of rights by pushing Muslims into a separate category under law. Conservative parties are ever-ready to extend a hand on the immigration control front, even if they're clueless in terms of policy development and implementation, as Brexit demonstrates. Indeed, the entire British government is now dedicated to immigration control, as many desired.

Personally, I think the over-focus on Muslims is not just discriminatory, but it's also very unhealthy, and only fuels greater unhappiness by causing people to obsess over secondary issues even as their anxiety increases for no good end. The exaggerated filtering in of stress is obviously never healthy; not to mention, it causes great misery in otherwise average Joe Muslim families, and by association stresses the heck out of all immigrants. A concern with terrorism is obviously fair enough, but that's something we're all concerned about, as reflected in the budget devoted thereto.

If you were an evil misanthropist, you would look no further than a strategy of making people obsessively fear and loathe some group, getting them to go on about it day and night as it took over their every thought, and crowded out their more constructive, adaptive capabilities. It's a foolproof manipulation of human frailty. Ironically, it's also the MO of the very hate preachers under discussion.

My perception is this: if every Muslim and Eastern European worker in the UK were socially-cleansed by some vulgar re-writing of rights and principles, the focus would simply shift to another scapegoat, and the same angry people would still be miserable even as they sought a new pogrom: people would still earn the same, young people still wouldn't be able to afford housing, trains would still be case studies in ineffective privatisation, jobs would still demand high minimum communication and IT skills, it would still be hard to find secure employment, London would still dominate the economy, finance would still dominate London, Northerners would still get paid less and find good employment harder to come by, the EU would still dictate trade, terrorism would still be a threat, people would still feel increasingly fearful and defensive as they age, the contemporary world would still feel like its spinning out of control, and on and on.

I actually enjoy my life in the working class multicultural suburbs, despite the usual irritations associated with higher-density living that I never experienced as a kid. But that enjoyment has not been increased a single jot by those obsessed with the ills of unfamiliar groups, even as they have taken over the machinations of government. And rest assured they won't improve their own or anyone else's life a jot, either, because that's not their focus.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:50 pm
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pietillidie wrote:
My perception is this: if every Muslim and Eastern European worker in the UK were socially-cleansed by some vulgar re-writing of rights and principles, the focus would simply shift to another scapegoat, and the same angry people would still be miserable even as they sought a new pogrom: people would still earn the same, young people still wouldn't be able to afford housing, trains would still be case studies in ineffective privatisation, jobs would still demand high minimum communication and IT skills, it would still be hard to find secure employment, London would still dominate the economy, finance would still dominate London, Northerners would still get paid less and find good employment harder to come by, the EU would still dictate trade, terrorism would still be a threat, people would still feel increasingly fearful and defensive as they age, the contemporary world would still feel like its spinning out of control, and on and on.

I actually enjoy my life in the working class multicultural suburbs, despite the usual irritations associated with higher-density living that I never experienced as a kid. But that enjoyment has not been increased a single jot by those obsessed with the ills of unfamiliar groups, even as they have taken over the machinations of government. And rest assured they won't improve their own or anyone else's life a jot, either, because that's not their focus.


Nailed it. I couldn’t agree more. Someone please bring me TP’s giant clapping hands. Razz

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:42 am
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David wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
My perception is this: if every Muslim and Eastern European worker in the UK were socially-cleansed by some vulgar re-writing of rights and principles, the focus would simply shift to another scapegoat, and the same angry people would still be miserable even as they sought a new pogrom: people would still earn the same, young people still wouldn't be able to afford housing, trains would still be case studies in ineffective privatisation, jobs would still demand high minimum communication and IT skills, it would still be hard to find secure employment, London would still dominate the economy, finance would still dominate London, Northerners would still get paid less and find good employment harder to come by, the EU would still dictate trade, terrorism would still be a threat, people would still feel increasingly fearful and defensive as they age, the contemporary world would still feel like its spinning out of control, and on and on.

I actually enjoy my life in the working class multicultural suburbs, despite the usual irritations associated with higher-density living that I never experienced as a kid. But that enjoyment has not been increased a single jot by those obsessed with the ills of unfamiliar groups, even as they have taken over the machinations of government. And rest assured they won't improve their own or anyone else's life a jot, either, because that's not their focus.


Nailed it. I couldn’t agree more. Someone please bring me TP’s giant clapping hands. Razz


Clap the straw man as much as you like, it’s still a scarecrow and it won’t bow.

I was very clear above that the principle of equality under the law for those who lawfully live here is inviolate. So 90% of that is irrelevant.

The question is what filters we apply in immigration policy, and what rate of any given group we allow into our country. The Uk government is indeed wrestling with that issue rather ham-fistedly, as governments do. Immigration has been far too high for too long, straining social services and housing for the poorest as every law of economics says it will, and causing social tensions. The idea, above, that immigration has little impact on services is lofty denialism worthy of a Boris Johnson. Indeed, Brexit is the act of self harm undertaken by a people pestered beyond endurance at their loss of community.

Within the broader question of immigration policy, we have the problem of growing Islamic influence in our politics. Islam is not a race, it is a global ideology associated with many well-known evils. Just as we would have been foolish to bring millions of Communists into our country in the 1960s, we are foolish to continue to import Islam on a large scale in a short time now. Designing policy to that end is within our sovereign power, if we cease to surrender that power to supranational bodies and treaties.

PTID, with all of his resources and optionality, might enjoy the multicultural places he has chosen. Those who grew up in Bradford, in Luton, in Boston Lincolnshire and so many other towns have far fewer choices. The opportunities and ways of life of these ordinary people have been degraded by politicians and ideologues who suffer none of the consequences. Immigration is not the only factor, of course - just a large one. As it is, by the way, in immiserating the houseless young in Australia. It’s all very edgy, until you have nowhere decent to live and English is a minority language in your kid’s school.

Until we grasp that people love their culture and have the right to resist externally imposed change, we will continue to incubate conflict and fragmentation. Orwell, as ever, was prescient in seeing his country becoming Airstrip One.

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:28 am
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^That's a lot of focus on Muslims and immigration, with little to contradict the age-old fact that quality of life is predominantly about economics and geography.

Just what sort of dividend is expected to come from constantly drawing the focus of the polity and political system to Muslims and immigration? A lot of people have been misled, and will only get angrier as nothing comes of this exaggerated focus.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:11 am
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^ i think I spelt out above the downsides of high immigration and the rapid mobilization of Islam in our society. I don’t know if that qualifies as a dividend for you, but peace, order, amenity and security are desired by most of humanity, and the maintenance of them seems a dividend to me.

Economics and geography matter, too, of course, as do other facets of social life. We have often discussed aspects of those. They’re just not the focus of discussion in the OP and this thread.

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thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 am
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Quote:
Just what sort of dividend is expected to come from constantly drawing the focus of the polity and political system to Muslims and immigration?


Yep, those rape victims or people speaking on their behalf should just STFU for the sake of diversity:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4813870/MP-shares-Twitter-post-telling-abuse-victims-shut-up.html

Yes, I know this isn't what you're saying but it starts down the slippery slope.
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