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| Do you want the Collingwood club song's words changed, in particular the word "cakewalk"? |
| 1) No. I do not want any changes to the words. |
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79% |
[ 39 ] |
| 2) Maybe. I am unsure and might be persuaded either way. |
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8% |
[ 4 ] |
| 3) Yes. I want change(s) to the word(s), AND I cannot be bothered reading through the options below to specify exactly what change(s). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 4) Yes. Specifically, I want only a one-word change (replace "cakewalk"). |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
| 5) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "There is just one team we favour" (the Club's failed 1983 version). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 6) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For the Magpie Army's faithful" (To...). |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| 7) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For the courage is unfailing" (At...). |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 8) Yes. Specifically, I want the one-line change "For I hear the magpie calling". |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| 9) Yes. I want change(s) to the words, AND my specific preference is none of the above. |
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4% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I'm not ignoring it, just pointing out it's incorrect. |
What is incorrect? That in the VFL/AFL era, they have always had a sash? Are you disputing that? We are looking at the same source for this...
Would you also like to dispute the Club's own website regarding the Britannia link? I regard that stuff as pre-history, but you were objecting to my words "came out of", which don't seem so different from "something of a precursor" and the ensuing description from the Club's website.
| stui magpie wrote: | | ... but your argument IS essentially that if we can change our jumper then why not the song? ... |
No, it certainly is not. Why don't you re-read the opening post? (That is supposed to be a rough and probably imperfect summary of the "GF Curses" thread discussion on the sub-topic, not just my own thoughts.) And while you're at it, maybe also re-read PPie's first post for a complementary summary. In both cases, the arguments are even enumerated for your convenience.
| stui magpie wrote: | ...
In the absence of a compelling case, tradition wins, the status quo remains. |
Herein lies a problem. You are conflating tradition and the status quo. They are not the same thing. (It certainly is not the same thing for our jumper. It's amazing that people are trying to claim the current jumper is traditional. It isn't. This is not an argument to change the club song. It's just reasonable, if people keep implying that it is, for me to keep challenging the claim.)
Can you (and everyone else) try to define what you think tradition is, and what it isn't? When do you think it applies, and when do you think it does not?
Last edited by K on Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:36 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
This year, I'll finish singing the club song with the line of "Oh, the Magpie Army's marching for the good old Collingwood". I'll know in my heart that at least that's true - that we will always support our boys, come what may, as they strive so hard in their incredibly difficult quest for premiership glory. |
Oh, sorry, I should perhaps have made that an option in place of 6) in the poll. I didn't see this in the other thread, and I was trying to resist the urge to have 26 different options, though I now see that that would have matched the number of different home jumpers Collingwood has had in the VFL/AFL era. |
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PyreneesPie 
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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| K wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: | ...
This year, I'll finish singing the club song with the line of "Oh, the Magpie Army's marching for the good old Collingwood". I'll know in my heart that at least that's true - that we will always support our boys, come what may, as they strive so hard in their incredibly difficult quest for premiership glory. |
Oh, sorry, I should perhaps have made that an option in place of 6) in the poll. I didn't see this in the other thread, and I was trying to resist the urge to have 26 different options, though I now see that that would have matched the number of different home jumpers Collingwood has had in the VFL/AFL era. |
Not a problem at all K  It's just what I would personally prefer to sing and I can do that regardless of what the official line is. We are lucky to live in a "free" country and not get imprisoned for such insubordination!! 
A cheeky little connection you've made there between the number of song options and the number of jumper changes!! 
I think I understand what your argument is though - why fall back on the argument that we can't change the song because of tradition (and that's how it's always been etc etc), when another integral part of our club's culture - it's guernsey - gets changed ad infinitum without a whimper from anyone!! Strange isn't it.  |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| K wrote: | ^ Yep. In the "GF Curses" thread, PPie also mentioned that "Collingwood, Essendon, Gold Coast and Port are the only ones who mention flags or premierships in their club songs". (I cannot off the top of my head independently confirm this.)
I'm getting the impression that some people are just making things up on the fly. I mean, David, where is the evidence that "if you get rid of [boastfulness] you start to undermine the point"? Really? Are you sure that that's the one true point of club songs? (Oh, and I don't know where you got that "116 years" from. GOCF is younger than that; GDG is older than that.) |
My impression was that the song was written in 1902, but it seems like I was out by four years. Thanks for taking the time to correct me, as the fact it’s 112 (now 113) years rather than 116 clearly negates my argument completely.
As for boastfulness in club songs, nearly every team has a line that is braggy in some way or other, and the tone of most of the rest of the songs is at least aspirational. But what do you expect? It’s a celebratory song, mostly sung after victories.
Adelaide: “We’re courageous, strong and faster, and respected by our foes”
Brisbane: “We are the pride of Brisbane Town”
Carlton: “We’re the team that never lets you down”
Essendon: “They all try their best, but they can’t get near”
Fremantle: “We’re gonna roll them and we’ll rock them; we’re gonna send them to the bottom”
Geelong: “We are Geelong, the greatest team of all”
GWS: “We’re greater than the rest”
Hawthorn: “We’re the mighty fighting Hawks”
Melbourne: “Every heart beats true for the red and the blue”
North Melbourne: “North Melbourne will be premiers, just you wait and see”
Port Adelaide: “We’ll never stop stop stop ’til we’re top top top”
Richmond: “If we’re behind then never mind we’ll fight and fight and win”
Sydney: “Swans will come in and win over all”
West Coast: “We are the big birds, kings of the big game”
Western Bulldogs: “You can’t beat the boys of the Bulldog breed”
Even if we had reason to believe that the players are thinking about the lyrics on any kind of deep level and that the cakewalk line is psychologically harmful, maybe you need to speak to the people in charge of the pre-game banners, and just replace all the trash-talking with “good luck, boys!”
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Thank you, David. Stui made a list, but I much prefer to read yours!
I'll comment more after reading it more carefully, but I don't object at all to "the pride" and "mighty" (for example). And I rather like "every heart beats true". How is that boastful? And never stopping stuttering until you're top seems to be an acknowledgement that you are not currently top.
Dare I say it, without extra context, "never let you down" could refer to, say, effort, commitment, honesty, or any number of things.
Last edited by K on Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Well, “mighty” is obviously a boastful way to describe oneself; if I said I was a mighty warrior, you would not exactly ask me to stop putting myself down... and if you’re saying that every heart “beats true” for you, you may be slightly overestimating your emotive reach.
Basically, if you were to take all team songs as statements of honest self-perception, you’d diagnose the whole competition with narcissistic personality disorder!
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| David, you are a mighty warrior. (I breathlessly await TP's response.) |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| K wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | I'm not ignoring it, just pointing out it's incorrect. |
What is incorrect? That in the VFL/AFL era, they have always had a sash? Are you disputing that? We are looking at the same source for this... |
Do you always change the goal posts when you're losing?
You originally said | K wrote: |
First a): I looked and, for starters, Essendon's home jumper has really not been changed at all (except for the width of the red sash). I have not checked all of the other clubs. One counterexample is enough for me. |
No reference there to having to be in the VFL. Essendon football club was established in 1872 and their original jumper didn't have a black sash.
Collingwood was established in 1892 and has always worn black and white vertical stripes
In one post you say it really hasn't been changed at all, except for the width on the sash, in another you say it hasn't changed at all.
In regard to Britannia, I have read Richard Stremsky's "Kill for Collingwood", I'm well aware of the significance of the Britannia football club, but they were not the Collingwood football club.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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You claim I changed the goal posts, but then next minute you focus on "not the Collingwood football club", when you initially objected to "came out of". (The club website uses the word "precursor".)
Would you like me to edit my original statement about Essendon to specify VFL? Would that make you happy? Do you also want me to put legal footnotes about the width of the sash in every single post I write about the sash. Isn't one mention enough? (I also mentioned numbers on the back in only one post. Is that okay?)
If you want to go back to a time before 1892, is it really so unreasonable to talk about Britannia? And even in the Britannia era, Essendon had the sash. Apparently, you want to go not just pre-VFL, not just pre-Pie, but also pre-Britannia (but we're not allowed to mention Britannia --- "don't mention the war").
Oh, and please (everyone) do respond to my questions about how to define tradition, what does or doesn't keep tradition, etc. Those questions were not intended to be rhetorical. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yes it is unreasonable because Britannia is not the Collingwood Football Club and never was.
Why just look at the jumper in isolation? and why limit it to just VFL times?
You used the footy jumpers website as a source, Here is (as I posted before) essendons full uniform since they were established as a football club.
http://www.footyjumpers.com/essendonall.htm
Note, originally no sash and blue pants, then the sash was added, then the shorts went to white then black then red then black again.
Collingwood on the other hand, has always had black and white vertical stripes (with some changes to thickness and style over the years) and black shorts since our establishment in 1892.
http://www.footyjumpers.com/collingwoodall.htm
I don't see any Britannia uniforms there, do you?
We have the least changed outfit of any club since formation, the oldest club song and have had the same nickname since foundation, unlike all other VFL clubs. So we have a strong sense of tradition.
Yet, we have changed over the years. We left Vic Park and we have changed our logo several times. As a club we are strong with tradition without being slaves to it.
All of which is irrelevant really, because the point of your thread (I think) was about changing the club song and I'm still waiting for you to put forward a compelling case as to why we should change.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Is that supposed to answer what you think counts as tradition or not, and when you think it's okay to break tradition or not?
Are you claiming categorically that the present Collingwood jumper is "traditional"?
(I may well start a separate jumper poll some time...)
What is your point about the Essendon FC? Do you want me to go back and clarify the first post I made about Essendon? How would another club changing their jumper before our club (or its alleged "precursor") even existed strengthen your arguments about anything? A club can hardly make any changes during the time it doesn't exist. Otherwise, University should be regarded as the most traditional of all clubs. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| K wrote: | | Is that supposed to answer what you think counts as tradition or not, and when you think it's okay to break tradition or not? |
No, it was meant to prove you wrong on several counts and I'm comfortable that it did.
What is tradition? It's a long (time frame is fluid) held practice, behaviour, belief or way of doing things.
Our song is traditional because it's over 100 years old and we've been singing it unchanged all that time. So are the black and white vertical stripes. We've always worn them, despite some variations.
The Boxing day test at the MCG is traditional despite only being a regular annual event since 1980
My mother used to be adamant that we had to have the traditional Christmas Dinner each year, despite it only becoming a tradition in the late 70's prior to which we went to someone else's house. Now she is more than happy to dispense with tradition provided some elements are retained
In business, traditional practices are the enemy of process improvement. "we've always done it this way" doesn't mean you always have to keep doing it that way.
If you think the song should be changed, how bout you stop attacking tradition as a defence and (as I've asked at least 3 times) present a coherent and compelling case as to why we should change the song. Nothing you've put forward so far fits either category.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| stui magpie wrote: | ...
No, it was meant to prove you wrong on several counts and I'm comfortable that it did.
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Which points are those? The point that I first wrote "Essendon's home jumper has really not been changed at all (except for the width of the red sash)"? Do you want me to go back and correct it by specifying VFL and/or changing "really not" to "not really"?
Do you think you have proved that the words "came out of" are wrong?
Thank you for your thoughts on tradition. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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So clearly your literary talents are limited to asking questions and pasting copious quantities of news articles, not being able to articulate a point.
Why should we change the club song?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Cam 
Nick's BB Member #166
Joined: 10 May 2002
Location: Springvale
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| think positive wrote: | No no no and NO!
Leave it the **** alone, WE are COLLINGWOOD we don’t need to change a damn thing, for any reason, and certainly not for a bullshit politically correct one! |
This
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Get back on top. |
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