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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| Wokko wrote: | | All the progressives who think that non whites need their help to succeed, in fact can't succeed without them are a prime example of being racist without realising it. Thinking that non whites are so inferior that they need assistance from white liberals is the only true racism (believing a race is inferior) I ever see. |
Your point may be valid but if it "is the only trues racism" you ever see, I don't think you are looking very hard, or at all.
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kill for collingwood! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
If you say something that others interpret as racist, but you don't realise it's racist, are you a racist?
people will believe what they want to believe, but there is an argument that he was more focused on their criticism of the USA and, channelling the "love it or leave it" slogans. |
He was, but the fact he pulled that out here and not in relation to his many white-skinned political opponents indicates that he sees them as foreign and not "real" Americans.
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How many of his white skinned opponents are immigrants or first generation Americans who were bagging the USA?
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On the first question, can you be a racist without realising you’re being a racist? Yes, absolutely, every day of the week. Everyone wants to think they’re "good" and will sometimes go to any lengths to convince themselves of that. Oftentimes we’re pretty good at hiding it from others, too. But Trump’s racism was blatant here. |
You answered a different question. I agree people can be unconsciously racist, but that wasn't what I asked or intended to ask.
I think I've suggested to you before when you were on one of your "how superior scandinavian culture is" trips that if you like it so much, why not go live there. Same principle. Suggesting that immigrants who complain about their new country should go back isn't necessarily racist, it was a line used toward the 10 pound Poms frequently and many of them did.
Context, perception and personal bias are important. Trump may well be or not be a racist, this exchange proves nothing either way.
FFS there was apparently a Twitter storm because his wife bought their kid a white dog, apparently proof they're white supremacists.  [/quote]
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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And in other news, Egg Gurl gets a non custodial sentence.
| Quote: | | A woman who threw an egg at the Prime Minister's head during an election campaign event has been sentenced to an 18-month community corrections order and will have to complete 150 hours of community service. |
Fairy Nuff for me, big wake up call for her.
Interesting side fact
| Quote: | Holt also pleaded guilty to possessing cannabis at the time of the egging.
She was also seven days away from finishing an 18-month good behaviour bond for a domestic violence incident. |
Potentially a lucky gurl.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-23/amber-holt-who-egged-scott-morrison-in-albury-sentenced/11337100
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I think I've suggested to you before when you were on one of your "how superior scandinavian culture is" trips that if you like it so much, why not go live there. Same principle. Suggesting that immigrants who complain about their new country should go back isn't necessarily racist, it was a line used toward the 10 pound Poms frequently and many of them did. |
Have I ever once said that Scandinavian culture is superior? I might have said that I prefer their politics to ours (but that’s not saying much). In any case, even the most jaundiced interpretation of what Omar, Ocasio-Cortez or their colleagues said would fail to assert that they ever said anything resembling a claim that Somalia, Puerto Rico or wherever is superior to the incorporated United States. So "go back to where you came from" in this context is not only unprovoked, it’s an assertion that they need to get back in their place as non-whites and never criticise the country that they are citizens of. It’s quite simple. The fact that similar slurs are sometimes directed at other people just shows that different kinds of prejudice can manifest in similar ways.
To be clear, I’m not saying that every mean thing said to a non-white person is automatically racist. But racist things said to non-white people are definitely racist.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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And saying racist things to a white person?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
Anyone who says that is either an idiot or malicious. They are also a racist. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
No such thing as reverse racism, only racism.
japanese are racist.
Thousands of Chinese abusing white Australian swimmer, Mack Horton, calling him "White rubbish".
Extract cranium from sphincter please. "Some would say" ........
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
Does this mean that calling a white person a cracker during the Trump presidency isn't racist but calling a white person a cracker during the Obama presidency was? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
Does this mean that calling a white person a cracker during the Trump presidency isn't racist but calling a white person a cracker during the Obama presidency was? |
Zing!
Just as there are good and bad in everything, there are racists of every colour!
It’s just that white people are not allowed to get offended
As for Horton, stand and applaud nothing worse than drug cheats. Life time ban it should have been.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| roar wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | All the progressives who think that non whites need their help to succeed, in fact can't succeed without them are a prime example of being racist without realising it. Thinking that non whites are so inferior that they need assistance from white liberals is the only true racism (believing a race is inferior) I ever see. |
Your point may be valid but if it "is the only trues racism" you ever see, I don't think you are looking very hard, or at all. |
I will say one thing about this - if you're genuinely going to have a serious crack at debating the undebateable, it's essential to have someone who properly represents the alternative, regressive stance. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
Does this mean that calling a white person a cracker during the Trump presidency isn't racist but calling a white person a cracker during the Obama presidency was? |
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
No such thing as reverse racism, only racism.
japanese are racist.
Thousands of Chinese abusing white Australian swimmer, Mack Horton, calling him "White rubbish".
Extract cranium from sphincter please. "Some would say" ........ |
I said that because I don't necessarily agree with it myself, though it's an argument I at least understand (seemingly more than some people here).
The principle is this: racism, sexism etc. don't occur in a vacuum, and are not simply prejudice against another identity marker; rather, they are activated by structures of privilege and disadvantage. What gives racism any power and meaning, according to this perspective, is that it's part of a broader dynamic of subjugation and disempowerment. It's why we don't talk seriously about "heterophobia" or "anti-ableism"; if such things exist, they lack any serious capacity to harm or to reinforce disadvantage, and that's purely down to context. If we lived in a world in which the majority were homosexual and heterosexuality had been pathologised, then of course heterophobia would be a real problem.
Now, I broadly agree with all that, but with two caveats: firstly, this doesn't mean that it is impossible to be racist against a white person (and certainly not that non-white people aren't racist). As you point out, a white person in China or Japan might well be a target of racism as a member of a minority group, and this might be, in certain contexts, a textbook case of prejudice and disadvantage. But where I diverge a little from the orthodox left perspective on these things is that I feel like "reverse racism" is often coming from a fundamentally similar cognitive place as garden-variety, power-backed racism, and that's something that's rooted in evolutionary psychology (suspicion of outgroups, etc.).
Power differentials may shape our society, but they don't explain every single thought and interaction. Otherwise, we would have to believe that a society without structural disadvantage would be free of bigotry, and I don't accept that for a second.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
Does this mean that calling a white person a cracker during the Trump presidency isn't racist but calling a white person a cracker during the Obama presidency was? |
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | That depends on whether you think “reverse racism” exists. Some would say you can’t have racism without the existence of societal power hierarchies. |
No such thing as reverse racism, only racism.
japanese are racist.
Thousands of Chinese abusing white Australian swimmer, Mack Horton, calling him "White rubbish".
Extract cranium from sphincter please. "Some would say" ........ |
I said that because I don't necessarily agree with it myself, though it's an argument I at least understand (seemingly more than some people here).
The principle is this: racism, sexism etc. don't occur in a vacuum, and are not simply prejudice against another identity marker; rather, they are activated by structures of privilege and disadvantage. What gives racism any power and meaning, according to this perspective, is that it's part of a broader dynamic of subjugation and disempowerment. It's why we don't talk seriously about "heterophobia" or "anti-ableism"; if such things exist, they lack any serious capacity to harm or to reinforce disadvantage, and that's purely down to context. If we lived in a world in which the majority were homosexual and heterosexuality had been pathologised, then of course heterophobia would be a real problem.
Now, I broadly agree with all that, but with two caveats: firstly, this doesn't mean that it is impossible to be racist against a white person (and certainly not that non-white people aren't racist). As you point out, a white person in China or Japan might well be a target of racism as a member of a minority group, and this might be, in certain contexts, a textbook case of prejudice and disadvantage. But where I diverge a little from the orthodox left perspective on these things is that I feel like "reverse racism" is often coming from a fundamentally similar cognitive place as garden-variety, power-backed racism, and that's something that's rooted in evolutionary psychology (suspicion of outgroups, etc.).
Power differentials may shape our society, but they don't explain every single thought and interaction. Otherwise, we would have to believe that a society without structural disadvantage would be free of bigotry, and I don't accept that for a second. |
Very clear, cogent and well written. You should consider a career in oh I don't know writing or editing or some such thing.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Here's an example of the problem with the "racism = prejudice + power" thing.
South Africa, prior to 1994, was an apartheid state where whites had political, cultural and economic hegemony. Since 1994 blacks hold political and cultural power and economically whites, whilst still prominent, no longer have hegemony.
According to the "old" (real) definition of racism if a white South African called a black guy a "dirty kaffir" it would be racist speech both prior and after 1994. According to the "new" definition of racism this would not be a racist utterance post 1994.
Of course, you can argue that South Africa is a special case but if you need to qualify and contextualise a definition it's probably not much of a definition. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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