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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | That’s rubbish, though. The media is just talking to itself, again. The ALP lost Queensland by falling between the two stools - you’ve got to take sides on some issues and they tried to dance around that issue, slipped and caught themselves on the fence when they came down. |
Read the article, I think they agree with you.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | I don't get why people care either way. ALP v LNP is a like a Carlton v Richmond Grand Final. You'd like the earth to swallow them both up just before half time. The only things that really matter about this process from the last few months are that:
- Abbott is gone
- Anning is gone
- Dutton isn't PM
- Shorten is gone.
These are all great victories for decent people. |
I'll add to your list:
- Turnbull is gone
- Pyne, Bishop, Laundy and Banks are all gone
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | This is our Brexit and Trump moment! YES!  |
So basically the beginning of the end for a once great nation.
For the record more people have voted Labor/Greens at this stage than Liberal/Nationals.
An Australian government just got rewarded for years of dysfunction, race baiting, homophobic slurs and cuckoo climate change denying.
Not surprisingly those who like to present themselves as upstanding conservative politicians within the Coalition seemed to lead the charge on all those fronts time and again.
How very Christian of them.
All this election has done is reinforce that we have a dark bigoted underbelly and our society is getting evermore selfish and that suits the right just fine.
So now we have a situation where a Coalition government believes it's wise economic management to strip 150 billion of tax revenue out of the budget in the form of tax cuts all the while we have an aging population.
This is of course all on the back of big spending promises and a continuation of what is essentially middle and upper class welfare in the form of negative gearing and franking credits.
And let's not even start with their rather bizarre (for them) socialist policy of underwriting the mortgages of first home buyers.
Morrison can celebrate this "miracle" if he likes but he should do so in the knowledge that close on half the nation see it as nothing more than another 3 years of damnation where the divide between rich and poor will widen, social injustice for the marginalized grows and bigoted ideals will be allowed to prosper.
Australians all let us rejoice.
Not. |
Australians rejected class warfare that Shorten and Labor were peddling to the electorate. The power of Hawke/Keating was their ability to unite the country, something Shorten and the current Labor team lacked in spades.
Australians rejected higher taxes, believing that they were better off with more money in their pocket rather than trusting the government to spend it wisely.
Australians rejected Labor's wealth redistribution policies and its constant attack on the so-called "top end of town", which in reality included a large portion of middle class people as P4S and Stui have pointed out. Shorten did not once outline his plan on how to grow the economy as he only ever talked about taxing the "top end of town" to death.
Australians rejected the climate change scaremongering that the far left had been pushing on the electorate. At my local polling booth, I had idiots from the Greens and GetUp hassling my family and I about how the world would literally end in 10 years if we didn't vote for their lunacy. I acknowledge it's inevitable that we're going to transition away from coal eventually, but believing that renewables is the solution without having reliable base load power such as nuclear energy is madness.
Australians rejected Shorten's climate rhetoric, particularly because he didn't outline his climate costings, rather he turned it back on people by turning into a moral issue toward those who dared to question the economic implication of his climate policies.
Australians rejected abolishing negative gearing because it would have led to a downturn in investment and the rise of rental prices, and possibly led the country into recession.
Australians rejected Labor's franking credits policy which would've made more retirees dependent on the government for an aged pension. Retirees voted against Labor for its plan to punish ordinary people who had worked and saved for their entire lives so they could be self-sufficient in retirement.
Australians rejected the attack on Christianity and the Prime Minister's religious faith.
Australians rejected the arrogance of Labor who acted like the election was a certainty from Bowen's comment to retirees saying "if you don't like it, don't vote for us", to Penny Wong's lack of decency to shake her opponent's hand in an election debate.
You can scoff and sneer all you like, but maybe Labor has to do some soul searching and wonder how they lost an election to a party who's been fractured for years. If Morrison and the Coalition get their acts together, then Labor will find it difficult to break through in 2022 as well.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I think the criticism runs true. The whole "top end of town" thing didn't work, particularly when you lump in self funded retirees and other people who would consider themselves working or middle class suddenly being told they're the top end of town and need to be punished.
People are aspriational, the class warefare doesn't resonate as while on one hand people wouldn't cry over the wealthy paying more tax, they'd also like to be the wealthy themselves and having their hard earned money "redistributed" doesn't excite.
Creating a vision of how to lift people up rather than tear people down, could excite.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Jezza, going forward the left will be lucky to ever win again because it has to fight ageing demographics and a general psychology of disorientation and fear due to massive world change and information overload.
These two things have been added to the uphill battle of fighting corporate interests, old money, and the riled mob vote.
So, the left has a choice: win by not trying to improve society and simply mirroring its opponent, or lose by trying to minimise decline.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Sun May 19, 2019 10:31 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: |
I think the criticism runs true. The whole "top end of town" thing didn't work, particularly when you lump in self funded retirees and other people who would consider themselves working or middle class suddenly being told they're the top end of town and need to be punished.
People are aspriational, the class warefare doesn't resonate as while on one hand people wouldn't cry over the wealthy paying more tax, they'd also like to be the wealthy themselves and having their hard earned money "redistributed" doesn't excite.
Creating a vision of how to lift people up rather than tear people down, could excite. |
Yep, starting with that assumption is the only plausible path for a left government. That said, as argued above I doubt they can win under current circumstances anyhow. But they still need to position themselves properly by getting this right.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | That’s rubbish, though. The media is just talking to itself, again. The ALP lost Queensland by falling between the two stools - you’ve got to take sides on some issues and they tried to dance around that issue, slipped and caught themselves on the fence when they came down. |
Read the article, I think they agree with you. |
Perhaps they do - in which case, the quote you posted from the piece, to which I specifically responded, is just irrelevant piffle. If they can’t think clearly, why are they published?
I trust, of course, that you understand that I’m criticising their drivel, not having a go at you? |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| Jezza wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | Jezza wrote: | | This is our Brexit and Trump moment! YES! |
So basically the beginning of the end for a once great nation.
For the record more people have voted Labor/Greens at this stage than Liberal/Nationals.
An Australian government just got rewarded for years of dysfunction, race baiting, homophobic slurs and cuckoo climate change denying.
Not surprisingly those who like to present themselves as upstanding conservative politicians within the Coalition seemed to lead the charge on all those fronts time and again.
How very Christian of them.
All this election has done is reinforce that we have a dark bigoted underbelly and our society is getting evermore selfish and that suits the right just fine.
So now we have a situation where a Coalition government believes it's wise economic management to strip 150 billion of tax revenue out of the budget in the form of tax cuts all the while we have an aging population.
This is of course all on the back of big spending promises and a continuation of what is essentially middle and upper class welfare in the form of negative gearing and franking credits.
And let's not even start with their rather bizarre (for them) socialist policy of underwriting the mortgages of first home buyers.
Morrison can celebrate this "miracle" if he likes but he should do so in the knowledge that close on half the nation see it as nothing more than another 3 years of damnation where the divide between rich and poor will widen, social injustice for the marginalized grows and bigoted ideals will be allowed to prosper.
Australians all let us rejoice.
Not. |
Australians rejected class warfare that Shorten and Labor were peddling to the electorate. The power of Hawke/Keating was their ability to unite the country, something Shorten and the current Labor team lacked in spades.
Australians rejected higher taxes, believing that they were better off with more money in their pocket rather than trusting the government to spend it wisely.
Australians rejected Labor's wealth redistribution policies and its constant attack on the so-called "top end of town", which in reality included a large portion of middle class people as P4S and Stui have pointed out. Shorten did not once outline his plan on how to grow the economy as he only ever talked about taxing the "top end of town" to death.
Australians rejected the climate change scaremongering that the far left had been pushing on the electorate. At my local polling booth, I had idiots from the Greens and GetUp hassling my family and I about how the world would literally end in 10 years if we didn't vote for their lunacy. I acknowledge it's inevitable that we're going to transition away from coal eventually, but believing that renewables is the solution without having reliable base load power such as nuclear energy is madness.
Australians rejected Shorten's climate rhetoric, particularly because he didn't outline his climate costings, rather he turned it back on people by turning into a moral issue toward those who dared to question the economic implication of his climate policies.
Australians rejected abolishing negative gearing because it would have led to a downturn in investment and the rise of rental prices, and possibly led the country into recession.
Australians rejected Labor's franking credits policy which would've made more retirees dependent on the government for an aged pension. Retirees voted against Labor for its plan to punish ordinary people who had worked and saved for their entire lives so they could be self-sufficient in retirement.
Australians rejected the attack on Christianity and the Prime Minister's religious faith.
Australians rejected the arrogance of Labor who acted like the election was a certainty from Bowen's comment to retirees saying "if you don't like it, don't vote for us", to Penny Wong's lack of decency to shake her opponent's hand in an election debate.
You can scoff and sneer all you like, but maybe Labor has to do some soul searching and wonder how they lost an election to a party who's been fractured for years. If Morrison and the Coalition get their acts together, then Labor will find it difficult to break through in 2022 as well. |
What revisionist twaddle.
It was predicted only 5% of retirees would have been affected by the franking credits policy and these largely represent the very wealthy.
Nice scare campaign by the Coalition and it must be noted only two countries in the whole of the OECD still operate dividend imputation systems. The other is NZ.
That should be all the proof required that the Labor policy was correct and economically responsible.
Yes I'm sure rental increases were front of mind for people to vote against negative gearing and not their hip pocket and property portfolios.
I mean where do you think all the people paying off these investment properties are going to live? They have no choice but to pay any rental increase should it come just like they already have to now without negative gearing unless they want to be homeless.
What are these higher taxes you speak of that the electorate rejected?
I guess you mean the ones for high income earners and not the majority who don't fall into that wage category who would have seen tax reductions.
Not sure what world you have grown up in to not consider an individual or couple earning $200,000 a year not well off.
The reality is under the Coalition someone earning 4 times as much as a person on $50,000 a year is set to gain 9.5 times more in tax reduction which seems awfully skewed towards high income earners and not affordable for a population that is aging.
The fact someone on $200,000 is set to gain a tax reduction worth half as much as the yearly aged Pension (you know the Pensioners without the franking credits) doesn't sit well with me and I'm sure plenty of others who care about the poor and elderly.
Please provide proof that Australians rejected this alleged attack on Christianity and the Prime Minister's faith.
Tony Abbott is gone for one.
I don't doubt some people voted for the Prime Minister simply because he believes in miracles, virgin birth, Hell and were incapable of much rational consideration beyond having that one thing in common.
I very much doubt however that was many peoples primary motivation for not voting for Shorten when if you're Christian and care about such things as equality Morrison has provided many better reasons across the years from his blatant race bating to abstaining from the same sex marriage vote (a No by any other name) to not deserve your vote.
You say voters rejected the arrogance of Labor.
Strange as the Coalition is full of shit eating grins so surprised it wasn't a winner.
As I've said before the left is about the we while the right is all about me, me, me and the reality is Labor and the Greens combined have scored a larger primary vote than the Liberal and Nationals to date so a centre/left wing ideology is still resonating with plenty of the Australian public it would seem and they have rejected the bigotry, greed and self interest that the Coalition can increasingly rely on for votes come election day it would sadly appear.
Only one party was brave enough this election to put a hint of positivity and vision out there with it's policy agendas while the other just ran a campaign of smear and fear because they really had no other card to play and lead by a former advertising executive he played the character of ScoMo to hide the real Scott Morrison we had come to know (and many loathe) all these years.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Labor and the Greens combined have scored a larger primary vote than the Liberal and Nationals to date so a centre/left wing ideology is still resonating with plenty of the Australian public it would seem |
Why include the Greens? They're a far left nutter party. If you're going to do that then include ONP and even UAP primary votes for the Right. Labor's primary vote was in the toilet, their vision has been roundly rejected. No surprise that instead of introspection the left wants to blame 'bigots' and 'racists' next it'll be white men and then Russians. It's Hillary all over again. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Obviously don't agree with your characterisation of the Greens, but I agree that it's a false dichotomy and that the right-wing minors should also be added if that comparison is to make any sense. If so, just looking at the top ten parties, the 'left' (Labor, the Greens and Animal Justice) got about 44.8% whereas the right (Coalition, One Nation, Palmer and Christian Democrats) got about 48.2%, with independents (who come from all over the political spectrum but perhaps tend toward the centre) getting 3.5%. From there, most of the other microparties are of the right (I counted something like another 2.5% to right-wing minors and 1% to centrists and left-wingers). So there's not much evidence that Australia leans particularly left-wing at this stage; if anything, the opposite seems to be true.
Ultimately, you probably don't need to look further than the fact that the 2PP vote is Coalition 50.9 to Labor 49.1. That tells the tale on its own.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Mon May 20, 2019 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Don't they get nasty when they lose.... oh the joy. 
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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Not religious but thank Christ.
Dodged a bullet with Shorten in particular but also with this Labor agenda.
Really hopeful of a more moderate Labor leader appointment in the coming days. Would like to see a better opposition to challenge Morrison.
I get the class warfare argument but hate the idea that you cant work hard and keep more of what you earn in doing so. Especially when doing so takes you away from your family for long hours at a time.
Why should $200k earners get a tax break ? - probably because they pay a heap more in tax
Just a few of the many other things a $200k earner pays for that dont burden the Public system is - private healthcare, private schools, property tax etc. They also cant claim anything back like the $50k earner can. as it should be but there has to be a limit somewhere.
We wonder why Polling is not showing the electorates thinking. As Jezza says, Id rather my taxes and expenses NOT go up for the sake of a bigger government that I dont have faith in.
When every issue is a moral one and one side is attacked as hateful or racist or bigots or homophobic or cuckoo or selfish rather than having a conversation on the merits........ in fact when you shut freedom of speech down you get what you asked for - the answers you want to hear and not the truth about what people are concerned about.
I think the Liberals were a basket case - under Malcolm. I think Scott did an amazing job to unify the party and manage a strong campaign including all debates. For Australia, I wish him all the best.
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"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Stock market just hit an 11 year high.
Iron ore over $US 100/ tonne.
Happy Days  |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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