Progressive Politics
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Here's a new discussion/debate on identity politics featuring Judith Butler, Cornel West and Glenn Greenwald that some might find interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv-TXOfI7vg _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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I might have a look but I struggle with watching videos that require concentration, I prefer reading.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-educational-divide-that-threatens-to-split-the-left-20211118-p59a8k.html
Interesting article I read a week or so ago on how Identity is replacing Class as the basis of left politics.
It creates a conundrum for the Labor Party which was founded on and by the union movement, the workers party, as the educated elite generally have no time for the working class masses. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Can't access it, so I'll just comment generally. Those pieces often don't make sense because if you look at the policies, the very cultural types they decry still support actions that by far favour the working class. David might write about feminist film, but you sure as hell know he'll support a higher minimum wage, access to better housing and services, access to training, etc., among a host of policies that favour the working class of any creed.
What's actually happening is the cultist right is hating its way in blind rage to unemployability — like the far left before it — as creative cooperation, critical thought and hard numeracy move to the centre of economic productivity. Right or left, no one can afford to employ people who can't learn, articulate, compromise, reason rigorously, cooperate, maintain peace, bite their tongue and accept people as complex individuals.
Only the highly numerate, intelligent or creative get away with not having those skills (which is probably why you find so many far-left and far-right extremists in, say, coding). But those on the far right (or far left) who are not gifted are doomed to poverty as Christian Taliban warriors. The far left has long been poor; the far right is now joining it in a guaranteed-to-lose psychiatry.
Moderates almost don't need a party anymore. Every additional act of self-destruction — climate denial, foreigner panic, Brexit, Trump, anti-abortion vote, anti-vax protest, illiterate outburst, hating on education, uninformed reaction to science, worsening of own healthcare, sacrificing of children to war, polluting of own communities, anti-whatever else — is another nail in the unemployability and underclass coffin of the right.
If you have any experience with cults, it really is like trying to help people in thrall to a movement — at mass scale. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Nah, wide of the mark. Try to read the article, it's very similar to something David posted not long back. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I was just bouncing off the topic. Putting the original article aside, my claim of a growing unemployable right underclass ought to be causing people who care to lose sleep. Once underclasses become locked in, they're very hard to undo. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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They do sort of play into each other in a way. The gist of the article as I understand it is that the left is increasingly attracting university educated people who are more interested in identity politics. This leaves the working class, the traditional Labor voters, disenfranchised by the left and attracted to some of the far right ideals that, in appearance at least, give them a voice.
Many of the people who flocked to Trump were just Blue Collar workers who'd seen the factories and industries they worked in closed down. They felt disempowered and without a voice and Hilary's collective insults only pushed more that way. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Thanks for posting this, David. _________________ kill for collingwood! |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010 Location: Ponsford End
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Thanks for the link, David.
I've becoming a growing admirer of Glenn Greenwald. _________________ | 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I’m a fan too, Jezza! I think he says some really perceptive stuff here in particular, though I found the contributions from all of the participants interesting and worth listening to. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Yep, all 3 provided insightful discussion. More open, respectful discussions without the political bs is what we need. _________________ kill for collingwood! |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Location: Essendon
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Ron Inglehart (post-materialist politics) says hi! Am I missing something here or is this discussion 40 years late to the party? |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Can you expand on that, NJ? I must admit I’m not familiar with his work at all. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Location: Essendon
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David wrote: | Can you expand on that, NJ? I must admit I’m not familiar with his work at all. |
Inglehart was an American political sociologist who's work has been really influential in how we understand changes in political values and by extension party systems and party competition. His 1977 work The Silent Revolution is a good place to start. In a nutshell his argument was that increasing levels of prosperity in western industrial societies in the postwar period has meant that for many, the values that drive political behaviour have shifted away from material concerns. We're no longer driven by concerns around satisfying basic material needs (food, shelter etc) as the level of prosperity has risen to the point where, for most, these needs are satisfied. This has resulted in a value shift with voters now motivated by post material issues (those associated with what are now often called 'identity politics' - gender, ethnicity, environment etc).
When you apply the theory to party systems, the argument is that we have seen a shift in importance from traditional political cleavages based on class which have been relatively stable over time, to cleavages based on post material issues. These tend to be more fragmented, dynamic and cross-cutting which explains why party identification (loyalty) and political systems have become less stable over the past 20-30 years. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Thanks for that – makes a lot of sense, and I think summarises where things are at pretty succinctly. The only thing that surprises me is that people have been talking about this for so long; I really thought of identity discourse as something that was very new in the late ‘70s (emerging in, say, African-American feminism) and only became a significant factor in left discourse after the decline of unions and triumph of neoliberalism in the 1980s.
I guess the big question is whether a material politics can be reinvigorated, or if that ship has sailed and the left needs to be reconstituted in some way that incorporates both material and identity-oriented approaches (or something else entirely). _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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yeah, NJ's succinct summary does make perfect sense with the benefit of hindsight. That someone wrote it in the 70's is really good work.
I personally don't see material politics in Australia making a resurgence, while there are certainly many impoverished people, there's not nearly enough to make a critical mass. Society has changed, politics needs to change with it. It's called evolution.
I wouldn't be at all surprised though if material politics does make a comeback in Europe and the USA. Trump basically bought himself the Presidency using it. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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