The Voice vote:
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| My vote: |
| Yes |
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54% |
[ 13 ] |
| No |
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37% |
[ 9 ] |
| undecided leaning to yes |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
| undecided leaning to no |
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4% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 24 |
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| Author |
Message |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | David wrote: |
I think we all know what that history is: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were here first, had their land taken from them by force (and sometimes via outright massacres, as recently as the early 20th century), and were then treated as (literal) second-class citizens for much of the past 200 years, with governments – made up of white people, elected by the white majority – often directly intervening in their lives, to the extent of forcibly removing children from families, making rules about who they could marry and imposing special laws on them. |
This is a fundamentally flawed analysis. The governments presiding over the massacres and then the relegation of the Aboriginal population to second class citizen status were made up of rich people and their political representatives. The colour of their skin was actually irrelevant. Today, the elements within the aboriginal population pushing for the Voice are exclusively highly wealthy layers: academics, business entrepreneurs, etc who see it as a means of entrenching their material privileges and social influence - at the expense of the rest of the aboriginal population. The agenda of the Voice absolutely in no way aims to address the devastating third world conditions of extreme social and material deprivation that have been imposed on the majority of the aboriginal population in this country, not by "white people" but by the political representatives of the super rich and corporate Australia.
Another aspect of the Voice is that it aims to promote the illusion that all of Australia is unified behind the "progressive agenda" of the Albanese government, which in actual fact is spending billions of dollars of money on nuclear submarines and offensive weaponry in its slavish alliance with the US and its war drive against China. No money for health, education, decent conditions for the Aboriginal population who are condemned to desperate poverty and no future, but billions for the army and tax cuts for the wealthy. I reject this entire referendum with the contempt that it deserves. |
I’m sympathetic to a lot of the above, but I’m not sure I can get on board with this historical narrative. Yes, Australia was divided along class lines and power was the domain of the rich, but it’s going way too far into class reductionist territory, for mine, to say that skin colour was irrelevant. No matter how badly off poor white people were in the years before federation, they were still in a fundamentally different societal position from First Nations people. And the fact is that the rich people in power happened to be white Anglos, and that that had a specific role in shaping their perception of how Indigenous people were and how they should be.
Saying the history of Australian colonialism is only about wealth is not unlike saying the years of slavery and segregation of African-Americans in the US were just part of the rich’s exploitation of the poor and nothing to do with race; it waves away much exploration of this precise dynamic, and particularly how the rich have historically used racism to bolster their own power and bring poor whites to heel. (And for whatever it's worth, we did have slavery and segregation here, too, so the comparison is not unwarranted.)
This "divide and conquer" approach is the theme of one of Bob Dylan’s best songs:
https://youtu.be/8X0UmfBwA_U
I totally share your antipathy towards the Albanese government and its pursuit of superficial symbolic progressive gains to distract from its neoliberal economic agenda and refusal to address inequality. And I can well understand scepticism about the motivations behind this referendum, from Indigenous and non-Indigenous people alike. But I think we still have an obligation to consider the proposal on its merits; and scepticism – no matter how justified – should be the starting point of critical analysis, not its beginning and end.
In politics, useful things are done for dubious and self-serving reasons all the time. What I would want to know here is: what will be the consequence of the referendum passing, and will this proposed body do more good or harm? The answer seems clear to me.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
My dad had a saying, "It's like putting a poultice on a wooden leg". Meaning, it may not do any good but it won't do any harm.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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More like it definitely won’t do any good, we don’t know if it will do any harm!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
Will do plenty of harm. It is part of the Albanese government agenda to present the propaganda of a "unified country, black and white, blah blah blah" and promote the concept that we should all accept sacrifice for the benefit of the nation. We should all accept our living standards to be slashed, so that the wealthy can receive their tax cuts and so that the Australian military can be supplied with the extra offensive weaponry that the US government demands Australia should arm itself with in order to help prosecute a war with China.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | you forgot judgemental
voting no doesn't mean someone is hostile or racist.
for the people i have spoken to its a trust issue. we simply don't trust we are getting the whole, or the ending story. |
No, didn’t use the word judgemental because David’s post simply wasn’t.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
Will do plenty of harm. It is part of the Albanese government agenda to present the propaganda of a "unified country, black and white, blah blah blah" and promote the concept that we should all accept sacrifice for the benefit of the nation. We should all accept our living standards to be slashed, so that the wealthy can receive their tax cuts and so that the Australian military can be supplied with the extra offensive weaponry that the US government demands Australia should arm itself with in order to help prosecute a war with China. |
Disagree. We’re talking about the voice yes vote not the redistribution of wealth (which I support). This won’t hinder this in the slightest. The two are not mutually exclusive. Whether that will happen is another question but voting no won’t redistribute resources nor rebalance power either.
This is not related to AUKUS which is an utter waste of money and diminution of sovereignty.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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^David
I am a Bob Dylan afficionado, yet had not heard before "Just a Pawn in their Game". Thanks for the link. However, I am not sure that the lyrics in this song support your argument however.
Racism exists, of course it does. But why? As you say, it is part of the deliberate strategy of the ruling class: "Divide and rule". What was the so called mission of the British colonialists? To "civilise the black man", and other inferior indigenous populations. The aboriginals in Australia were to the British ruling class a barrier to their seizure of the land, and hence they fomented the most violent racism among the most oppressed layers of society in colonial Australia (ex convicts etc) to assist them in their program of genocide.
Racism is one of many ideological mechanisms utilised by the ruling elite to prevent unified opposition to its domination of wealth and political power. Racism is consciously promoted, in many forms: openly by the most bigoted and obviously right wing elements, but also by the "lefts" who demand that they should be awarded privileges because of their skin colour. The ruling class is happy with both of these.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
Will do plenty of harm. It is part of the Albanese government agenda to present the propaganda of a "unified country, black and white, blah blah blah" and promote the concept that we should all accept sacrifice for the benefit of the nation. We should all accept our living standards to be slashed, so that the wealthy can receive their tax cuts and so that the Australian military can be supplied with the extra offensive weaponry that the US government demands Australia should arm itself with in order to help prosecute a war with China. |
Disagree. We’re talking about the voice yes vote not the redistribution of wealth (which I support). This won’t hinder this in the slightest. The two are not mutually exclusive. Whether that will happen is another question but voting no won’t redistribute resources nor rebalance power either.
This is not related to AUKUS which is an utter waste of money and diminution of sovereignty. |
If you think that the Voice referendum is not connected to AUKUS and the alignment of the Albanese government with the US in its war drive against China, you are mistaken.
If you think that the Voice referendum is not about the entrenchment and intensification of social inequality in Australia, you are mistaken.
The Voice referendum is about cementing a privileged layer of black academics/business operators who claim to be defending the democratic and social rights of the Aboriginal population, but in reality will be doing deals with corporate Australia to exploit minerals and Aboriginal cheap labour. Their role is to cover up the Albanese government's total refusal to spend any money to address the desperate social misery that the majority of the Aboriginal population must endure in this country.
Finally, the Albanese government (like the Liberal government before it) is in a military alliance with the US, because the Australian capitalist economy depends massively on US financial investment. The US is openly publicising imminent war with china (within the next 2 or 3 years). The Albanese government is aware of the enormous opposition that this will incite within Australia. So the Voice referendum is a very important part of its propaganda in demanding that the population adhere to national unity, and support the "national interest". If the Voice referendum is passed, those who oppose the policy of the Albanese government can be portrayed as "wreckers", or even worse as "racists" who are sabotaging the unity between "whites and blacks".
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
Will do plenty of harm. It is part of the Albanese government agenda to present the propaganda of a "unified country, black and white, blah blah blah" and promote the concept that we should all accept sacrifice for the benefit of the nation. We should all accept our living standards to be slashed, so that the wealthy can receive their tax cuts and so that the Australian military can be supplied with the extra offensive weaponry that the US government demands Australia should arm itself with in order to help prosecute a war with China. |
Disagree. We’re talking about the voice yes vote not the redistribution of wealth (which I support). This won’t hinder this in the slightest. The two are not mutually exclusive. Whether that will happen is another question but voting no won’t redistribute resources nor rebalance power either.
This is not related to AUKUS which is an utter waste of money and diminution of sovereignty. |
If you think that the Voice referendum is not connected to AUKUS and the alignment of the Albanese government with the US in its war drive against China, you are mistaken.
If you think that the Voice referendum is not about the entrenchment and intensification of social inequality in Australia, you are mistaken.
The Voice referendum is about cementing a privileged layer of black academics/business operators who claim to be defending the democratic and social rights of the Aboriginal population, but in reality will be doing deals with corporate Australia to exploit minerals and Aboriginal cheap labour. Their role is to cover up the Albanese government's total refusal to spend any money to address the desperate social misery that the majority of the Aboriginal population must endure in this country.
Finally, the Albanese government (like the Liberal government before it) is in a military alliance with the US, because the Australian capitalist economy depends massively on US financial investment. The US is openly publicising imminent war with china (within the next 2 or 3 years). The Albanese government is aware of the enormous opposition that this will incite within Australia. So the Voice referendum is a very important part of its propaganda in demanding that the population adhere to national unity, and support the "national interest". If the Voice referendum is passed, those who oppose the policy of the Albanese government can be portrayed as "wreckers", or even worse as "racists" who are sabotaging the unity between "whites and blacks". |
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I think you’re conflating a whole lot of issues together in a reductionist way but that’s your view point. The Voice is a start.
We need a meaningful treaty after this. Yes we are in a capitalist economy not breaking news just quietly. Voting against the voice will not change that one iota. The Voice may well assist in giving voice to how money and policies can provide practical assistance to First Nations people.
I think you’re seeing it in too binary a manner. Life is not either or. Life, indeed politics is much more complex than you’re suggesting.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
Will do plenty of harm. It is part of the Albanese government agenda to present the propaganda of a "unified country, black and white, blah blah blah" and promote the concept that we should all accept sacrifice for the benefit of the nation. We should all accept our living standards to be slashed, so that the wealthy can receive their tax cuts and so that the Australian military can be supplied with the extra offensive weaponry that the US government demands Australia should arm itself with in order to help prosecute a war with China. |
I think you should separate The Voice from the other stuff, It's not part of an overall agenda, frankly Albo isn't that smart. It is what it is and can do far more good than harm, IMO, if it get up.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: |
I think you should separate The Voice from the other stuff, It's not part of an overall agenda, frankly Albo isn't that smart. It is what it is and can do far more good than harm, IMO, if it get up. |
I agree, Albanese is not very smart.
But he is not relying on his own intellect.
He is receiving his instructions from political strategists of the ruling elite, who understand full well that every issue is interconnected in an overall class strategy aimed at suppressing working class opposition in every way possible to austerity measures and preparations for war.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
I think you should separate The Voice from the other stuff, It's not part of an overall agenda, frankly Albo isn't that smart. It is what it is and can do far more good than harm, IMO, if it get up. |
I agree, Albanese is not very smart.
But he is not relying on his own intellect.
He is receiving his instructions from political strategists of the ruling elite, who understand full well that every issue is interconnected in an overall class strategy aimed at suppressing working class opposition in every way possible to austerity measures and preparations for war. |
Ah the international cartel?
Do The left wing conspiracy theorists balance right wing conspiracy theorists? 🤔
I’m getting the popcorn but will still vote for the voice.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
I think you should separate The Voice from the other stuff, It's not part of an overall agenda, frankly Albo isn't that smart. It is what it is and can do far more good than harm, IMO, if it get up. |
I agree, Albanese is not very smart.
But he is not relying on his own intellect.
He is receiving his instructions from political strategists of the ruling elite, who understand full well that every issue is interconnected in an overall class strategy aimed at suppressing working class opposition in every way possible to austerity measures and preparations for war. |
Ah the international cartel?
Do The left wing conspiracy theorists balance right wing conspiracy theorists? 🤔
I’m getting the popcorn but will still vote for the voice. |
No conspiracy theories here, WPT.
When I say "ruling elite", I am referring to the Australian ruling elite.
Do you seriously believe that there is no connection between capitalist governments and their respective ruling elites?
Don't you think there is a possiblity that Albanese is listening to the various political strategists spawned in right wing think tanks close to the Australian intelligence agencies, the military, and corporate donors ?
The PwC scandal reveals the revolving door between the capitalist state and private corporations.
There are no left wing conspiracy theorists, because conspiracy theorists are exclusively restricted to the far right wing.
Never in my comments have i made reference to an "international cartel"
That is a product of your imagination, and a falsification of what i am saying.
Enjoy your popcorn, and vote however you like.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Disagree mate. Can't do any harm, may well just do some good. |
i meant to the wooden leg!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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