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Rebuild or reset ?

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:16 pm
Post subject: Rebuild or reset ?Reply with quote

Interesting listening to the first crack on AFL channel they brought up a interesting stat
Since it became the AFL in 1990 there have been 17 premiership coaches
All except 3 have coached there side to a premiership within first 5yrs
Those who didn’t
Choco Williams 6th year
Bomber Thompson 8th season (was nearly sacked after 6th season)
Damien Hardwick 8th season (was also nearly sacked at end of 6th season)
So the panel commented in the first 5yrs the club invest everything into there coach. He is given everything he needs and that includes bigger say on recruitment and retention. After that clubs generally reevaluate and start making decisions based on the Clubs needs not the coaches

So do we completely bottom out and rebuild or do we reset and try to lure some players and move forward with the majority of this list ??

Either way I don’t see Buckley being part of either
For mine there is a clear issue between the coach/club and the playing group (or a big part of them)

So rebuild would mean
1. Ageing players would be delisted or traded or retired and the club goes deep into the draft playing youth
2. Some fan favourites will be moved on in one of the ways mentioned above
3. We evaluate remaining assets and see what value they have at trade table sparing no one (everyone is up for grabs if the offer is right except pendles)
4. A new coach new game plan new voice but also means some pain for the supporters whilst it happens

So a reset would mean
1. A couple players would be sacrificed
2. We would retire or delist a couple players
3. We would try to recruit some mid aged players 23-28 to fill the needs we have
4. We might trade away some draft picks or a couple players to get deals done

Personal I would prefer the rebuild for the following reasons
1. A new playing group learning and growing together
2. We get to be excited again about what the future holds
3. We have some talent/youth here now which we can build around and add too
For mine you rebuild around
Adams
JDG
Elliott
Moore
Daicos
Grundy
Checkers
Crisp
Maynard
T.Brown
Kelly
Henry
Noble
IQ
Howe
Pendles (because he’s untouchable and shouldn’t be moved until he decides but might have to play a limited role until he retires)
And all untried or lightly tried draft picks (14 of them)

That’s 30 players so we would need 10-12 more players which is a massive turnover
Of the other players there isn’t much there we would get a lot for
Other than Sidey who we would expect a 2nd round pick for the others won’t bring anything to go deep into draft for
If we are going to do this we would also need a overhaul of list management and recruitment
New faces who work with the coach to fill in the blanks we need to fit the style the coach wants to play

Hopefully the club will make its intentions known sooner than later

The only thing to look forward to is if Buckley is true to his words in his presser
“First 4 rounds we have picked what we thought was our best team that hasn’t worked so know we will change plans in regards to selection”

Hopefully we see 3 or 4 new faces next week
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Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:04 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

The list has so many holes, there needs to be a total rebuild. They won’t sell it as a rebuild because that’s a dirty word outside their four walls but that’s what will happen.
One of the big issues we face at the next draft is that as it CURRENTLY stands, after Nick Daicos, we really won’t enter back into the draft until around the fourth round.
The point being, if the club wish to get busy again at this years draft, they would need to trade out a couple players just to buy back into the earlier rounds. The club may be able to offer up our early 2022 picks but thats subject to ever changing draft rules anyway.
There’s a lot of short term pain to be had because there is no quick fix to our current plight.
So we might as well all buckle up, cause it’s going to be a bumpy ride.
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Presti35 Virgo

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Joined: 05 Oct 2001
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:17 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Reset. But it's a fine line isn't it. I've just seen too many teams rebuild and rebuild and rebuild and go nowhere. All different sports all over the world.

Things in this league can turn very quickly. Look at the Swans, the Dees and even the Crows. Did those teams reset or rebuild? It's unlikely that these teams will win the flag this year, but have been playing good football up to this point.

Thinking of a rebuild, lets talk about Carlton. Prime example of how a rebuild can set you back and take even longer to recover from. And I believe the Kangaroos are right in the middle of a rebuild too. New coach, dumping older players, and playing youngsters. They are bound for the spoon and it's hard to see how long it will be until they are a top 8 team again. I do not want to go down that road. 96-99 were horrid years.

So what to do with over 30s?
Pendlebury (33) Keeps going. But maybe he needs to hand over the captaincy?
Mayne (32) Will retire. Unless Freo ask him for a season.
Greenwood (32) Will retire. He does offer a bit of toughness/depth. But at 32... well you know.
Sidebottom(30) Keeps going.
Roughead (30) Keeps going. We need to find a key backman very soon tho.
Howe (30) Keeps going.
Cox (30) Keeps going because we dont have another key forward.
Thomas (29) I think will try to get on the Suns list.

We let go of a lot of experience last year too. Varcoe, Reid for example. So the reset has already begun. Don't forget we got rid of so many of the "has beens" already.

Looking forward to seeing what Rantall, Bianco, Keane, Wilson, Macrae, Kelly, Ruscoe, Poulter, Murphy, McMahon, Henry, McCreery and McInnes can bring. Most of these guys will get a shot at some point this year. I hope they'll be able to stand up and step in very soon.

Young jets: Daicos, IQ, I believe Tyler Brown has potential too. Nick Daicos on the way.

Jets: JDG, Crisp, Maynard, Moore, Mihocek? Elliott? (But getting older too)

Nobel is an honest goer, as is Madgen. They'll never be AA caliber players, but are great team players.

Who needs to stand up right now: Grundy, Cal Brown, WHE, Sier.

So there's enough there for the right coach to do something with. Especially if we get the draft and trade period right.

What this team needs is a few fresh faces and a new vibe. Eddie is gone. Change is on the doorstep.

As far as the list goes, we need to desperately find the right fits in or front six. Our back six are great, altho Howe and Roughy are over 30 and we need to think about that. Can we actually land a top notch free agent? Someone that is going to make a difference and not take up the entire salary cap. I dont want another Wells situation, paying someone that much for 15 odd games. Can we make a serious offer to Petracca? Are we kidding ourselves with the lack of trade chips we have? I think the key is free agency. But we also need to find that key forward we've been lacking.

I've mostly supported Buckley in his 9 seasons as coach. But there is a stale feeling about the club right now. I can see that we need to make some changes in the coaching box. I'm not saying he is a bad coach or a bad person. But if we continue to slide this season, there's just going to be too much pressure on the club to make a change. By the supporters, the media and from those inside the club itself.

We need a more attacking style of football and Bucks needs to work this out very quickly if we're to be some kind of threat this season. Personally, I dont think we have the right forward mix to do this.

So all the questions are all going to surround who the next coach will be. A brand new face or someone that has coached at AFL level before?

When MM took over, we had just become wooden spooners (1999). In 2000 we'd shown great signs and vastly improved. In 2001 we were on the doorstep of the finals and in 2002 we were in the Grand Final.

In a nutshell: Get the coaching staff/game plan right. Get a new Pres/board that are on the same page of where this team needs to go. And tinker with the current list a little bit, which may include a new leadership group and a few delistings. Land the right players in free agency and find the right forward six setup. I dont think we need to bottom out and start rebuilding. There's enough here already to get things going.

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inxs88 



Joined: 17 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Rebuild or reset ?Reply with quote

qldmagpie67 wrote:
Interesting listening to the first crack on AFL channel they brought up a interesting stat
Since it became the AFL in 1990 there have been 17 premiership coaches
All except 3 have coached there side to a premiership within first 5yrs
Those who didn’t
Choco Williams 6th year
Bomber Thompson 8th season (was nearly sacked after 6th season)
Damien Hardwick 8th season (was also nearly sacked at end of 6th season)
So the panel commented in the first 5yrs the club invest everything into there coach. He is given everything he needs and that includes bigger say on recruitment and retention. After that clubs generally reevaluate and start making decisions based on the Clubs needs not the coaches

So do we completely bottom out and rebuild or do we reset and try to lure some players and move forward with the majority of this list ??

Either way I don’t see Buckley being part of either
For mine there is a clear issue between the coach/club and the playing group (or a big part of them)

So rebuild would mean
1. Ageing players would be delisted or traded or retired and the club goes deep into the draft playing youth
2. Some fan favourites will be moved on in one of the ways mentioned above
3. We evaluate remaining assets and see what value they have at trade table sparing no one (everyone is up for grabs if the offer is right except pendles)
4. A new coach new game plan new voice but also means some pain for the supporters whilst it happens

So a reset would mean
1. A couple players would be sacrificed
2. We would retire or delist a couple players
3. We would try to recruit some mid aged players 23-28 to fill the needs we have
4. We might trade away some draft picks or a couple players to get deals done

Personal I would prefer the rebuild for the following reasons
1. A new playing group learning and growing together
2. We get to be excited again about what the future holds
3. We have some talent/youth here now which we can build around and add too
For mine you rebuild around
Adams
JDG
Elliott
Moore
Daicos
Grundy
Checkers
Crisp
Maynard
T.Brown
Kelly
Henry
Noble
IQ
Howe
Pendles (because he’s untouchable and shouldn’t be moved until he decides but might have to play a limited role until he retires)
And all untried or lightly tried draft picks (14 of them)

That’s 30 players so we would need 10-12 more players which is a massive turnover
Of the other players there isn’t much there we would get a lot for
Other than Sidey who we would expect a 2nd round pick for the others won’t bring anything to go deep into draft for
If we are going to do this we would also need a overhaul of list management and recruitment
New faces who work with the coach to fill in the blanks we need to fit the style the coach wants to play

Hopefully the club will make its intentions known sooner than later

The only thing to look forward to is if Buckley is true to his words in his presser
“First 4 rounds we have picked what we thought was our best team that hasn’t worked so know we will change plans in regards to selection”

Hopefully we see 3 or 4 new faces next week


Good analysis

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies2016 wrote:
The list has so many holes, there needs to be a total rebuild. They won’t sell it as a rebuild because that’s a dirty word outside their four walls but that’s what will happen.
One of the big issues we face at the next draft is that as it CURRENTLY stands, after Nick Daicos, we really won’t enter back into the draft until around the fourth round.
The point being, if the club wish to get busy again at this years draft, they would need to trade out a couple players just to buy back into the earlier rounds. The club may be able to offer up our early 2022 picks but thats subject to ever changing draft rules anyway.
There’s a lot of short term pain to be had because there is no quick fix to our current plight.
So we might as well all buckle up, cause it’s going to be a bumpy ride.


Pies2016 I’ll bow to your broad knowledge of the under agers coming through but could we do the following

Take Daicos with our points from our second round and later picks plus some trades and still save our first round pick (likely picks #4-#Cool ?
Or do they just automatically take your 1st round pick and then whatever points deficit required from later pick downgrading it ?
Is there another player who fits our needs that might be available with our draft pick ?
What if no one picks Daicos before us so we don’t have to match a bid could we take another player with our 1st round pick then go into deficit in 2022 and get 2 top 10 players ?
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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:43 pm
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Presti35 good points but I’ll use the hawks as a example they have been happy to clear premiership players at will
They are devoid of emotion when doing it because there coach has been upfront and honest with them in the process
For mine we can’t rid the club of all experience but we need to be mindful of the older players we keep around
For mine Pendles Howe Adams Checkers would all be good examples to have around
I’m not sold on Cox still one week I’m yes he’s going good the next nothing
Whether it’s called a rebuild reset or refurbishment or changing of the guard I care not
What I want to see is change for the better
I’ve said for a long time we have gifted games to players who should have been dropped on form
I’m not talking 2021 I’m talking for past 6+ yrs
Blair Langdon C Brown Wills Thomas Sier WHE all come to mind quickly who’s exposed form didn’t warrant regular games
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:54 pm
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This all really depends on who our next coach is doesn't it. I'm not opposed to a full rebuild but I suspect it won't be necessary, we do have enough ingredients to base a good stock on.

I still think Sidebottom can be more useful to us than whatever we'd pick up as a trade - as long as he's utilised 'correctly' - but of course, it depends what's on offer and our 'requirements' on personal.

imo it'll take us 3 years (inc this one) to emerge from the other side of this dibarcle and opening our premiership window again - depending on the breaks and a little bit of luck of course with drafting, trading and injuries.

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Pies2016 



Joined: 12 Sep 2014


PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:55 am
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qldmagpie67 wrote:
Pies2016 wrote:
The list has so many holes, there needs to be a total rebuild. They won’t sell it as a rebuild because that’s a dirty word outside their four walls but that’s what will happen.
One of the big issues we face at the next draft is that as it CURRENTLY stands, after Nick Daicos, we really won’t enter back into the draft until around the fourth round.
The point being, if the club wish to get busy again at this years draft, they would need to trade out a couple players just to buy back into the earlier rounds. The club may be able to offer up our early 2022 picks but thats subject to ever changing draft rules anyway.
There’s a lot of short term pain to be had because there is no quick fix to our current plight.
So we might as well all buckle up, cause it’s going to be a bumpy ride.


Pies2016 I’ll bow to your broad knowledge of the under agers coming through but could we do the following

Take Daicos with our points from our second round and later picks plus some trades and still save our first round pick (likely picks #4-#Cool ?
Or do they just automatically take your 1st round pick and then whatever points deficit required from later pick downgrading it ?
Is there another player who fits our needs that might be available with our draft pick ?
What if no one picks Daicos before us so we don’t have to match a bid could we take another player with our 1st round pick then go into deficit in 2022 and get 2 top 10 players ?


The first problem is that we currently don’t have a first round pick. We swapped that with GWS to buy into the last draft.
We currently have one second rounder ( Dogs ) and three third rounders ( Pies, Crows Freo ) and a couple more late picks that aren’t worth any F / S points value. Happy to be corrected but pretty confident that’s right. At this stage we are kicking off our draft night at wherever Dogs finish in the second round. ( likely mid thirties )

There’s so much to play out yet but possibly Daicos currently goes at #2 behind Josh Sinn. At a possible pick 2 and after F / S discount, his points are something close to everything we currently hold with both our second and third rounds totalled up. Anything after #2 marginally improves our draft hand ( late ) with every further selection that he’s not called out. What we need to barrack for is for the Bulldogs to fall off the perch. As for Daicos, I cant see him being there after #5 unless his season is badly interrupted somehow.

Re futures, under normal conditions you could trade out your first round 2022 future pick but there are rules and conditions that don’t allow you to continually trade out your futures every season without a pause at some point. I’m just not sure of the exact detail on those restrictions as to whether Collingwood would be impacted at the upcoming trade period.

He’s a wonderful talent ( but no Rowell ) so we are fortunate to have him locked away.
Collingwoods challenge will be to find another kid or two who can carve out a career from the same draft alongside him.


Last edited by Pies2016 on Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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Piesnchess 



Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:46 am
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PLAY. ALL. OUR. KIDS. BLOOD. THEM.. ALL. EVERY. GAME. THAT IS ALL.!
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Abdul The Bull 



Joined: 02 Aug 2017


PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:36 am
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If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll continue to get what you've always got!

On that basis, we simply cannot persist with the current coaching staff.

Time for a total clean out, including captain and coach. Make no mistake, I rate Pendles but he needs to step aside (as captain) to signal a new beginning.

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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:45 am
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A football club is like any workforce. When you have incompetent people running it there is no point shifting policy because you have the same people running it and they will just stuff it up again and again. So please CFC, no more reviews of football culture or structural changes within the football department. We need to terminate the services of every coach and assistant coach working at the club. The only two people I would retain in the football department are Graham Wright and Derek Hine. All the others should be looking for new jobs. The only innocents here are the players. We have a superb leadership group led by Scott Pendlebury. They have been severely let down and deserve better treatment from the club.
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:04 am
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i really believe if bux didnt show up for work next week and the players were told "work it out amongst yourselves" we would look a whole lot better.

you cant tell me we dont have one player smart enough to figure out the current "plan' is bullshit? that we need a marking forward? that kicking backwards, across the opposing goal is the way forward? that bombing it to no one is working? we may not win but we might actually $$%^%%$ try.

lost the players? did you not see EVERY player go hug Ads, the guy who was told no one here wants you? if thats not a middle finger i dont know what is. no body like being thrown under a bus. You really expected Grundy to turn it on when last week the coach said his role aint important? He said its not his job to motivate players- that said it all for me - but its also not his job to shame them. They look like directionless headless chooks out of juice. it doesnt even matter now what kind of coach he is, its over.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:05 am
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MatthewBoydFanClub wrote:
A football club is like any workforce. When you have incompetent people running it there is no point shifting policy because you have the same people running it and they will just stuff it up again and again. So please CFC, no more reviews of football culture or structural changes within the football department. We need to terminate the services of every coach and assistant coach working at the club. The only two people I would retain in the football department are Graham Wright and Derek Hine. All the others should be looking for new jobs. The only innocents here are the players. We have a superb leadership group led by Scott Pendlebury. They have been severely let down and deserve better treatment from the club.
totally agree
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slangman 



Joined: 11 Aug 2003


PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:52 am
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You will very rarely win a premiership when your defenders are your best players.
The forward line in ALL teams is the most important part of the ground where your best and most dangerous players need to be.

We have it all back to front.

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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:13 pm
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It's clear to everyone that we don't have a team good enough to challenge for a flag this year. Especially after exiting 3 of our best players, this was always going to be a re-build year. So I hope this season sees us blood 4 or 5 more new players on top of Henry and McCreery who have already had a run. McCreery already looks a likely lad, because he is physically strong and plays with aggression. Henry has the skills, but is a tad light on physically imo, but he will be a beauty. If we can get close to a dozen senior games into a bunch of youngsters this year, then this season can be a productive one, regardless of wins/losses.

The players who should make way for our new brigade include Thomas, Mayne, Greenwood and Callum Brown (young but not good enough). To this list those on notice to lift their games or move aside should include Cox (needs greater consistency), Sier and WHE (very talented, but not committed enough).
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