Russian invasion of Ukraine

[What'sinaname]

[What'sinaname]

[Magpietothemax]

[pietillidie]

[pietillidie]

[Magpietothemax]

^ I will ignore this absurd diatribe except to say: how can you possibly know that "I am lying to myself" ?? Where is your evidence?
However, I can say, with abundant objective evidence, that with your claims that I support Putin, you are lying not merely to yourself, but to everyone on this board who happens to read your slanderous nonsense.

[pietillidie]

^You bolster Putin; that's just reality, and the effective end of your efforts. You don't want to, just as you don't want to diminish Ukrainians. But your desire to sate the vulnerable self is far stronger than either of those things, so it pushes Ukrainians down the queue, deplatforming them and platforming Putin in the process, as you clamour above all for your narrative of self to be heard.

Like Trump, Putin loves far leftists; positively adores them for helping consolidate his power by spreading his talking points. The finger of blame has turned upon itself, to quote Crowded House.

Now, it doesn't have to be that way. You can deprioritise yourself, tell that voice within to take a hike, and start prioritising Ukrainian and regional voices instead. It might be at some point they desire a different approach; that's not our call. It might be that the risk blows out beyond the known. It might be that the Great Satan starts doing idiotic things as it has done historically. Those possibilities remain on the table in a realistic model that prioritises both the victim and the greater good, and keeps an eye on that equation alone. But there's no evidence for that at this stage, and no one buys Bush/Cheney-style WMD justifications.

If you were on a less prone, less self-absorbed, more disciplined wavelength, you'd be very good at assessing the parties and the risk sensibly. And I'd be first to canvass your views.

Anyhow, that aside, I just saw this free online webinar, and you were the first person I thought of who would likely appreciate it: https://worldbeyondwar.org/gaza-and-ukraine-to-wwiii-the-nato-problem/

[stui magpie]

^

Ptiddy, I humbly suggest you grab a beer or go for a walk.

We both know, clearly, that MTTM has a particular political belief system that obviously influences how they view world affairs and political situations. Regardless of what you and I think of that belief system, they're free to hold it and espouse their opinions as long as that causes no harm to others.

As you well know, when you ridicule a persons opinion, all you do is harden their resolve. I've been guilty of psycho analysing people's thought process, something I regret and that is counter productive.

My suggestion, if you choose to accept it, is let MTTM have their opinions and play the ball not the person. You won't change their political view, you can challenge their opinions on specific situations.

{climbs down off soap box and lets himself out}

[pietillidie]

^On the beer/walk we are in full agreement!

Belief systems do change, though. And of course there's also the problem that I'm as free as anyone to express my views. One of the most interesting things is the space carved out for the extreme to express their views with all manner of force, but not for people to question their views with any force, let alone commensurate force. It's like an affirmative action but without evidence of disadvantage.

For the record, just because people hold extreme views doesn't mean they hold them for good reason. You can see this in the special dispensations carved out for Trump as an lunatic representative of the angry; anyone else would be removed from running for saying or doing any of the things he does on any given day. Since when did rage or extremism become their own justification, no further questions required? Even good people can have some pretty destructive flaws that they, and indeed the rest of us, could do without. I'm not talking mistakes or bad spells; those afflict us all. I mean sustained destructive behaviours.

There's certainly nothing free about imposing the cost of highly negligent and careless judgement on others. Most everyday matters are neither here nor there, but the really big things warrant high expectations. Think of the insanely massive costs of Iraq, global warming denial and Brexit; there was ample information for good judgement on these, or at least sensible risk management, with space to spare for discussion about some of the details, such as how to best phase out which fossil fuels when and where.

(You could potentially add the GFC, which wouldn't have occurred with sane financial regulations. But I separate it somewhat as it was only put to people in the US at the ballot box as a clear GOP ideology, and the field of finance is so complex it's hard for people to assess at the best of times. Similarly with the pandemic, as the risk management wasn't put to people, and I think people assumed these things were being adequately monitored, even though they did vote for conservative governments who gutted funding and risk management buffers generally, with Trump dismantling pandemic early warning buffers very openly in the US.)

Note, I don't even have a settled position on Ukraine, being ready to adjust with the risk, whether from Russia or the US, and the Ukrainian desire to stay in the fight.

Unfortunately, in all of these cases, good judgement is well within people's reach, at least to get it right enough, or at worst not hopelessly wrong. But people still get them hopelessly wrong, presumably on the basis of self-serving desire. That inability to offset the self,even somewhat, is presumably the fundamental cause; no one anywhere was forced to take a reckless, careless position on these things.

Now, it might be that that selfishness is biologically fixed. That people are inherently so narcissistic that they cannot but twist and distort reality such that even a professed Christian can claim Trump is the lord's handpicked representative. Or, maybe they're just misanthropic A-holes. Or just talking without thinking. It's hard to tell sometimes.

But I don't buy that we're just clueless apes who can't see beyond the next impulse, because we all show capacity for good judgement when it suits. Not expecting that from each other is bitter pill to swallow and some serious random chaos and massive cost we're left to wear without hope.

Anyhow, carry on. I will let it go again. M2M, I know leftists well for historical reasons, hence pushing you periodically. I do think you're smart, decent and capable, just trapped in outdated self-supports. Anyhow, because far-left ideas lack the backing of billionaires, they're much less problematic than far-right ideas.

[Culprit]

Russia is upset Civilians killed in Sevastopol. It seems they are the only ones allowed to kill civilians in that conflict.