Our rucks

[Pied Piper]

Here's something to be genuinely concerned about.

For several years, Collingwood has rated around the bottom for hitouts per game. Getting first hands to the ball has been an issue for our midfielders for years as a result - although not having enough strong ball-winning "inside" players was also an issue.

Darren Jolly and Luke Ball were specifically brought in to address these issues. And I don't think anyone would dispute they have improved our team.

But according to Pro-Stats, at the halfway mark of the season Collingwood is still ranked second last for hitouts, with an average of 30.9 per game. Predictably, West Coast and Fremantle, who have the strongest ruck players, rank first and second. But Sydney - who covered for Jolly's loss with the recruitment of Shane Mumford - are third. Mumford has been killing it, regularly racking up 40+ hitouts per game, the sort of numbers Jolly was accumulating last year. That's why we recruited him.

I'm not disappointed in Jolly, and it's important to remember he hasn't been rucking one-out - he's always had either Fraser or Wood as backup. But I am a little flummoxed. Is this a game plan thing? We know Sydney like to clog up games and create stoppages - it plays to their strength, namely strong clearance players like Kirk, Bolton and McVeigh.

The fact is, we're still getting spanked in an area we wanted to address. We tried to address it by pulling off what was thought to be a trading coup in getting a ruckman many thought was in the elite bracket. (I think if we hadn't also got Ball, we'd have been in a bit more trouble - his hard in and under work has been so important for us. While Daisy's the favourite for the Copeland, I think Ball will go close - he's been everything we wanted.)

*Searching for answers from learned Nicksters.*

[magpiemike]

Wow! The first time I've ever seen 'flummoxed' used in a sentence, and it's on a Pies forum. Stop it, you'll give us a bad name. I'm a little perplexed.

Otherwise, good post. How far off are Monkeys lads?

[uuuuu..... The LoneSTAR]

I was at the game yesterday & was surprised to learn the hit outs were in favour of the dogs!

If you ask me, i thought our rucks [Fraser as well ] were getting clear hitouts more often than not!

[Pied Piper]

[Pied Piper]

^ I haven't seen the game yet (only heard on radio) but it sounded like Jolly got a few great hitouts to direct advantage, at least a couple resulting in goals. Still, that doesn't answer the bigger question...

[roar]

[Brown26]

A number of things go towards having a lot of hit outs - one obviously being getting the hit out, but another (as you point out) is having a lot of stoppages.

I'm not sure what the numbers are, but Sydney, Saints etc are known to play a lot of stoppages, where as Collingwood, Geelong not so much. If Mumford wins 50% of 100 stoppage and Jolly wins 50% of 50, the numbers make Mumford look great but in reality.

Plus, we got at least two goals directly sharked from Jolly's nice ruck work on Sunday - I haven't seen much of Mumford, but I'm very happy with Jolly in that department.

I wouldn't worry too much, we've shown in the past we can steal other rucks taps regardless.

- Ben

[roar]

[Brown26]

[roar]

Where did we finish in the clearances?

[melliot]

My guess is................

The fact Sydney clog it up and have a lot of stoppages mean they will statisatically will have more clearances and hitouts by sheer weight of having more opportunity to get them.

I guess there may be 100 stoppages in a typical Swans game and only 50 or so typically in ours. Therefore a 50% clearance of hitout rate would mean over the year Swans would have 50per game vs 25 for us.

The important Stat is the clearance and hitout DIFFERENCE to opposition.

....................And checking that stat shows Swans at +25 and us at -13 for clearances. So my thinking has been smashed by my own research. Damn!.

BTW Dogs sit at 85 which is the highest!

Hit Outs Pies sit at -72 and Swans at +36 and Freo leading at +172!

Hmm, It is "flummuxing"!

It has to be a setup thing at stoppages. We reduce our capacity to get the clearance to be able to apply tackle pressure.

Tackles Pies are the best with +117 Swans -85.

I think that might be the answer. We setup far more defensively on the stoppages.

Also Interestingly, "1st Possesion" Pies are +15 and Swans +25 and Dogs the best with +138.

Some food for thought.

[mattys123]

Jolly is averaging about 20 hitouts a game, which is much higher then any ruckman we have had at the club in years.

What we lack is a second ruck who can make an impact.

Fraser has struggled all year with Injury and form, and Wood, well he has been close to woeful in his senior appearances.

It's a blessing we have Jolly now, because Wood and Fraser are struggling that much that we would basically be "screwed" without him.

Jolly needs help, that's how I read it.

[OEP]

My view is that Jolly is getting better every week. He's not yet at the point all Collingwood supporters want him to be, but he's getting there. Some of his ruck work last night was stunning and two excellent pieces of play directly resulted in goals for the Pies.

I must admit to being somewhat mystified that it's taking him so long to regain his touch, even accounting for his need to acclimatise to Collingwood's style of play and the players around him.

* Could the slow start be because he's not rucking one out enough, ergo he's not spending enough time in his preferred position to quickly reach peak form.

* Could it be because of the Collingwood ruck coach. I know of at least one instance where he's contacted the Sydney ruck coach for instruction.

* Could it be that because Collingwood aren't the same stoppage style team as the Swans he's not getting the chance to ruck enough to produce those types of stat's. I would love to see what the percentage comparison would be between the number of ruck contest competed for and won, when he was playing for the Swans last year, compared to the number of ruck contests competed for and won this year with the Pies. It could just be his numbers are down because there's not as many ruck contests to win, yet the percentage of contests won by him may be similar or the same. I might try and find that one out.

* Could it be because of how the ruck contests are now being adjudicated he's finding it hard to find his rhythm. Everyone knows he's been giving away a lot of free kicks, on the field he looks flummoxed by the decisions and off the field he's made comment about how he feels the ruck contest rulings have changed. The ruck contest and the rules that govern it seem for all intense and purpose a highly flexible and completely interpretable set of rules that each individual umpire does their best job to guess correctly.

It could be one of the above, a combination of them, all of them, or none of them.

[Black_White]

One drawback with Jolly this year. Amount of frees he is conceding in the ruck contests.
He just doesn't seem to be learning what is permissible and White isn't.
Apart from that, it's good to see an actual ruckman in the true sense of the word playing in Black & White.
Pity it wasn't a decade ago, we may have more silverware in the case.

[melliot]

^ Agree. He is the 2nd most "Frees Against" Player in the League!

What is frustrating is that when he gets mauled, there is no free to him.

CFC needs to get the Umps adviseor and Jolly in during the break and sort it out.

While Jolly is giving away a lot of Frees. I think he has been on the wrong end of the stick too often.