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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Well hello there! Now all we need is tannin and R2D2 to pop in! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Haha, I hope you're well. I was just pondering NK today, and Nick's is still the go-to outlet!
Looking forward to ANZAC Day! _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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pietillidie wrote: | ^Haha, I hope you're well. I was just pondering NK today, and Nick's is still the go-to outlet!
Looking forward to ANZAC Day! |
Me too! I reckon we will win well! Havent been this excited about footy for a long long long long, long time!
Last week was just the best in so long! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
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North Korea's primary objective in developing nuclear weapons was never about developing one that could travel all across the ocean on an ICBM to the United States.
The primary objective was safe guarding itself from the perceived threat of invasion by the United States and by developing a nuclear capability it has achieved what it set out to do, has a nuclear arsenal capable of destroying Seoul or Tokyo and believes that is enough of a deterrent for the West.
While any progress in the cooling of tensions with North Korea is welcomed I dare say the only real benefit Trump might have delivered is halting the ability or desire of the North to deliver a nuclear strike on his shores.
In reality though North Korea has already won the battle, wont be giving up their nukes you don't feel, so all the West can do now is placate them and contain the threat. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Which is all we could ever do. Until the US and other superpowers take the lead in getting rid of their nuclear stockpiles, they have to expect that smaller pariah countries (particularly those in tense geopolitical situations) may develop theirs. Clearly, in the case of North Korea, all the sanctions, threats and diplomatic isolation in the world havent stopped them. As much as it makes me uncomfortable to think of a lunatic like Kim (or Trump, for that matter) having access to such weaponry, theres not really any conceivable reason for Kim to use them unless we give him one. A less punitive, more open diplomatic approach seems like the best option by far right now. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Kim would develop them regardless of the nuclear status of superpowers. While the Us (in this case) has the conventional warfare capacity to overthrow him with ease, hell pursue nuclear as his only strategic option. Why would you think that US nukes are the issue here ? _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Perhaps you're right, but I'm sure their own nuclear arsenal provides a particular motivation, as it does for other countries that have developed their own it seems the nature of international power struggles that, where one country has a trump card (so to speak), another will seek to match it. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Looks like we're back to endless sabre-rattling and that Trump's (relative) de-escalation strategy is off the table:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/03/north-korea-nuclear-attack-us-kim-regime-lloyd-austin
Quote: | “Minister Lee and I had an outstanding discussion today,” Austin said. “We talked about how the DPRK [North Korea] has continued provocations and destabilising actions, and at this time of heightened tension, our alliance is ironclad.
“The United States remains fully committed to the defense [of South Korea]. Our extended deterrence commitment is firm and includes a full range of our nuclear and conventional and missile defense capabilities.”
He said the two countries planned to return to large-scale military exercises on the peninsula. |
See, when they do it it's bad, but when we do it, it's good...
Also, as much as I'm inclined to defend Trump, I think this is an astonishingly one-sided take:
Quote: | Trump, whose cavalier treatment of matters of nuclear policy has been extensively reported, met repeatedly with Kim, staging high-profile summits that produced little tangible benefit. |
Yet this is the first time in three to four years that we're seeing tensions on the peninsula escalate. So maybe the diplomatic approach actually did have positive effects?
Note this from the Wikipedia article about NK–US relations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea%E2%80%93United_States_relations#Biden_Administration_(2021%E2%80%93)
Quote: | In early 2021, the United States under the presidency of Joe Biden attempted a new outreach to North Korea, to which they were unresponsive. On 18 March, the Korean Central News Agency put out a statement by North Korean first vice minister of Foreign Affairs Choe Son-hui acknowledging attempts at contact, and stating that North Korea would continue to ignore such attempts in the future. In it, she also criticized the United States for continuing military drills and maintaining sanctions against North Korea, and said that "no dialogue would be possible until the United States rolled back its hostile policy toward North Korea and both parties were able to exchange words on an equal basis." |
The thing is, these aren't unreasonable demands. So the fact that the US refuses to budge on them, and only responds to tensions by escalating, is itself a big part of the problem. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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So are Iran and Syria. Many countries including Australia are funnelling weapons to Ukraine. It's hardly a justification for stepping up existing tensions. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010 Location: Living rent free
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Trump was a credible threat, and these nutters just waited until a weak President was in office. _________________ Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Nonsense and an utter misreading of the situation. Trump didn’t make America great again. Trump made Russia, China and North Korea “great again”. Trump backed Putin saying how he admired him. He wanted Ukraine to submit. Still don’t trouble yourself with facts. _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010 Location: Living rent free
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^ Funny how all three of China, Russia and now North Korea start engaging in aggressive tactics once Sleepy Biden took office. _________________ Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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watt price tully wrote: | Trump made Russia, China and North Korea “great again”. |
I don't think this is true, except in the sense that you could argue that his America-first policy and bickering with NATO states weakened the collective position of "the West". But it remains the case that Putin did not seek to capitalise on this disarray at the time but waited until Biden was president and something like the geopolitical status quo under Obama had resumed.
Personally, I think we're giving America a little too much credit by putting them too much at the centre of these things, whether it be as hero or villain. While we can only guess at whether Putin would have been reluctant to jeopardise his relatively friendly relations with Trump and invade Ukraine while he was in office (and it has occurred to me that the invasion might have happened earlier if Clinton had won in 2016), I suspect that ultimately the timeline had nothing to do with who was the American president and everything to do with the lack of a resolution in the Donbas conflict and, in particular, Russian domestic politics.
Otherwise, these countries progress mostly along the same trajectory they've been following in the last couple of decades: China as rising superpower; Russia as economically struggling, authoritarian kleptocracy with a penchant for bullying its neighbours; North Korea as impoverished rogue state. Their situation didn't meaningfully improve between 2016 and 2020 and few of the approaches pursued by the US during that period remain in place. So not only didn't Trump make those countries "great" (or any greater than they already were), I suspect he'll prove to have been mostly a blip in their respective histories. It's in US domestic politics where he's left the most profound damage behind (in terms of his Supreme Court nominations, his massive tax cuts for the wealthy, and his shifting of the Republican Party even further away from reality and democracy). _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010 Location: Living rent free
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Looks like KJU is MIA again. _________________ Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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