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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^Better nuke Seoul, then, too. |
when i suggested that about China i got the comment removed, and a PM!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | roar wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | the USA for all it's faults has been an ally of ours for decades. |
Did you hear Pompeo yesterday? I have no doubt we are better off with US as an ally than China but let's not think the US wouldn't shaft us in a second, if it was in their interest. |
Sometimes you have to tell a mate they're being a dickhead. In this case WE are the dickhead. |
Is that about Andrews signing up for their Belt and Road stuff? Someone needs to give him a clip and reminder that there's no such thing as free money.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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I think that’s accurate, isn’t it? We are tilting at windmills. As a trivial and globally irrelevant nation, we can have absolutely no impact on China. The cartoon mocks our impotency.
It doesn’t actually matter what people think about China’s conduct, the only thing that can have a useful impact is co-ordinated international compliance action. At the moment, there is no suggestion of any practical response. There’s been a bit of “It wasn’t me, it was them” whinging out of the White House but little suggestion of any action.
Will folks be satisfied if Australia bans all rutile exports to China? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Where do I start. We're neither trivial nor globally irrelevant and we can impact on China.
The cartoon doesn't mock our impotence, it's drawing from the scene where Don Quixote directs his servant to attack the windmill, painting Australia as the servant of the USA doing their bidding.
This is quite an interesting article, you may even learn something
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-25/china-and-australia-trade-relations-who-really-holds-the-power/12281608
Like the fact that China is the worlds largest producer of iron ore, but it's shit quality so they need ours.
Nice summary bit at the end.
| Quote: | As a challenger for global economic domination, China will remain an important market for Australia, at least for some years. But its unwavering growth trajectory is a thing of the past.
Mass unemployment, huge debts and a one-party state leadership that will countenance no questioning has put it at odds with large sections of its own population, regional neighbours and the western alliance, a volatile mix guaranteed to increase global tensions.
Where it once viewed Australia as a compliant and convenient source of food and raw materials, the past few weeks clearly have signalled a shift. Beijing's ruling elite now sees us as an errant and ungrateful junior.
In this period of reflection, perhaps it's time we considered our future. |
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| Wokko wrote: | | roar wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | the USA for all it's faults has been an ally of ours for decades. |
Did you hear Pompeo yesterday? I have no doubt we are better off with US as an ally than China but let's not think the US wouldn't shaft us in a second, if it was in their interest. |
Sometimes you have to tell a mate they're being a dickhead. In this case WE are the dickhead. |
That's true, but I still don't believe they wouldn't shaft us if it suited their agenda.
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kill for collingwood! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Oh, they would, they just may feel a slight twinge of guilt.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| roar wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | roar wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | the USA for all it's faults has been an ally of ours for decades. |
Did you hear Pompeo yesterday? I have no doubt we are better off with US as an ally than China but let's not think the US wouldn't shaft us in a second, if it was in their interest. |
Sometimes you have to tell a mate they're being a dickhead. In this case WE are the dickhead. |
That's true, but I still don't believe they wouldn't shaft us if it suited their agenda. |
Of course they would, and we'd do the same back but with possibly the exception of New Zealand I think the USA and AUS would be the last two countries to screw each other over.
Trump exempted us from his trade restrictions at the start of his term, and we've fought side by side with the Yank for 100 years now. Washington calls and we answer every time. In this case we've got a State premier who is SO obviously in China's pocket signing us up to things that nobody in their right mind thinks is a good idea right now. Dan answered these concerns by bathing our landmarks in Red and Gold like a good little vassal state would.
Not sure of the constitutionality but I'd be all for the Feds somehow nixing this deal on National Security grounds. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | Trump exempted us from his trade restrictions at the start of his term, and we've fought side by side with the Yank for 100 years now. |
Trump did not exempt Australia from the impact of his global economic suppression campaign, which began with his trade war, a ruse to drive capital into the global safe haven to artificially inflate his numbers to give him something to tweet about.
The effect was to reduce global economic growth, including that of Australia and its trading ecosystem.
How you keep falling for this stuff is beyond me 
Australians have been fooled again. And again. Way back to Vietnam. There comes a time where the past must be deemed exactly that — the past.
Remember when Little Johnny thought he was receiving glorious recognition as George W. put a Man of Steel medallion around his neck? Only later did Little Johnny realise all the US was doing was hanging a millstone around his neck while flushing his legacy down the toilet, playing the simpleton into providing PR cover for hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees.
The US is more dangerous than ever as it fractures and declines. Work with everyone and trust no one, I'd have thought.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Quote: | | Work with everyone and trust no one, I'd have thought. |
Close.
Trust no one completely. DTA - Don't Trust Anyone. But also acknowledge that there are some you can trust more than others. The USA has earned trust as an ally of ours over decades, China has proven repeatedly that they have no friends and will burn anyone on a whim. They value vassals not allies.
Work with everyone you can trust to be reliable, pay the bills on time and not fkuc you around when it suits them. So sell China stuff on terms that suit us but don't ever let yourself become reliant on an unreliable customer.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I don't disagree with diversifying clientele at all, just as I've argued for diversifying industry.
But when it comes to the US, you must still thinking of WWII war movies. From Vietnam to Iraq, the US has only dragged Australia into violent, destructive mires of its own making, not to mention two financial crises significantly at its own hand, as well as the global economic suppression mentioned above.
Pleasant press conferences in between can't be allowed to distract from the hard facts.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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You take an incredibly narrow view of the USA/AUS relationship for a smart bloke.
Yeah, we've fought in wars with them, the stuff that doesn't get the headlines is more important including trade, security, mutual interests, all the stuff that transcends individual leaders.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^But of that I would argue only the tacit security is worth anything. The rest represents cordial relations for the telly. Australia doesn't win from the US on the everyday trade and mutual interests front. Recall they pulled the TPP the second it could be used for political capital. Australians just like to be liked and thus overweight the warm photo ops (see John Howard's fatal mistake referenced above).
That said, I do accept that the tacit security blanket must cost something. But it certainly doesn't need to cost Vietnams and Iraqs, and going back to eggs in one basket, it's time to get others more involved as the US becomes increasingly flakey and dangerous, and effectively charges Australia more through its global economic suppression.
South Korea might once again prove an interesting case study given it depends heavily on the US for security, but would be held entirely hostage if it didn't have alternatives and leverage at hand.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | I understand that pseudo intellectuals and people who think humans are way more important and deserving to life than animals.... |
The eating of meat pies and hot dogs is hardly a niche hobby of the wealthy and (pseudo) intellectual, certainly in our culture.
I'm not taking a position on meat eating, just pointing this out. |
 you think there is actually meat in pies and hot dogs! By the way neither I or hubby eat either or meat. Rhino horn in particular has become a niche status symbol for wealthy Asians especially the Chinese and Vietnamese and not just in those countries those who reside in the US , Australia etc also are big consumers and your precious Koreans are the biggest consumers of bear bile outside China (even though it is technically illegal) so what’s their excuse for perpetuating such cruelty and being the biggest contributors to edging so many species rapidly towards extinction?
I would really like to hear you justify the endorsement by the WHO of TCM which has nothing to do with the BOM and everything to do with appeasing China? Might just be me and most of my colleagues but we would sort of like the “World Health Organisation” to promote evidence based practice - too much to ask it seems when $$$ are paramount! 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I probably have much closer views to your own than you think. The difference is my approach to the problem. I think meat has to eventually go or be grown in labs, consider animal cruelty a violence, and despair at things like deforestation.
But I don't believe in individual martyrdom and don't trust its psychology. If curtailment of meat eating is campaigned and legislated, I will support it, as long as it applies to everyone. I have the same views of environmental law. We're in society together, and I'm not going to stand outside it and don't think anyone should have to.
On traditional medicine, I believe culture is a complex system of interlinking assumptions, and it takes time and considerable long-term effort for it to change. Of course, where endangered species are concerned radical intervention is needed. But trying to force people with a value system which is configured differently to one's own to modify their behaviour, when they just don't have the conceptual apparatus to get the problem or weight it in the same way we do, only makes people defensive, thereby worsening outcomes.
I don't have strong views on the WHO (I don't know enough about them), but they're not an Evangelical sect, and their job isn't to proselytise and hector. They represent existing nations and cultures, not simply me and my future ideal culture.
Friendship, education and gradual normalisation are the way forward. Ranting might feel good — don't I know it — but it's self-oriented and only reduces the chance of success with others. The big changes to culture come in generation shifts or unpredictable moments such as a pandemic. Right now is the time to befriend Chinese organisations and support them as the current situation will enable people to take on new ways of doing things. I think you might be doing that already from what you've said.
People forever underrate the individual capabilities and intelligence of other ethnic groups on the basis of the stylised culture with which they encounter in public. The problem with this is that all cultures are stupid generalisations by definition. It shouldn't need to be said, but there's plenty of independent thought going on in every mind out there, it's just hard to access it when cultural identity is primed or triggered. Having delivered thousands of one-to-one sessions with people of a different culture, I can assure you people say and believe things as individuals that they simply don't and can't express at group level.
Related to this, I think I'm going to have to start viewing the populist right as a different culture to my own. I already view the far left/right and different religious groups this way, but I once considered people who are populist right to still be mainstream. Not anymore; that world is now a different planet. When you identify with people you expect them to behave within a certain range of possibilities, in effect making you less tolerant of them when they step beyond that. We always talk of the 'culture wars', but this goes well beyond that and calls for intercultural and multicultural strategies.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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