Luke Hodge DUI
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dalyc 
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| David wrote: | This is a real problem with the way the game is marketed. The idea that team captains must be exemplary human beings is a bizarre authoritarian fantasy – the real measurement is on-field leadership, playing ability and rudimentary media skills.
I think the biggest fantasy here is that people even care about players' off-field behaviour. Most tabloid scandal stories exist within a fishbowl: some triviality is seized upon, Michael Carr-Gregg or the Australian Family Association provide the requisite quote and people bang on about it on Twitter for four hours until they move on to the next irrelevancy. Football fans by and large don't care if Scott Pendlebury cheats on his wife or if Alan Toovey gets into a fist fight on King Street, because, while most football fans may be voyeurs and bored junk-consumers, they generally aren't uptight prudes.
It's a dynamic that prioritises media profits over young men's freedom and privacy. I don't know how that paradigm can be broken, but I think it would help if intelligent people called it out for what it is. |
Wow David. Your arrogance really knows no bounds. People who have an alternate view to you aren't intelligent?
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dalyc
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| David wrote: | This is a real problem with the way the game is marketed. The idea that team captains must be exemplary human beings is a bizarre authoritarian fantasy – the real measurement is on-field leadership, playing ability and rudimentary media skills.
I think the biggest fantasy here is that people even care about players' off-field behaviour. Most tabloid scandal stories exist within a fishbowl: some triviality is seized upon, Michael Carr-Gregg or the Australian Family Association provide the requisite quote and people bang on about it on Twitter for four hours until they move on to the next irrelevancy. Football fans by and large don't care if Scott Pendlebury cheats on his wife or if Alan Toovey gets into a fist fight on King Street, because, while most football fans may be voyeurs and bored junk-consumers, they generally aren't uptight prudes.
It's a dynamic that prioritises media profits over young men's freedom and privacy. I don't know how that paradigm can be broken, but I think it would help if intelligent people called it out for what it is. |
Further, so you'd be comfortable with a club captain that displayed your 3 requisite qualities who was also a bigoted, rascist, white supremacist, , drug using, tax avoider?
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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| Years ago in WA the a person had to register a bac of over 0.08 to commit an offence. It was reduced to 0.05 to bring the law into line with the other states. I don't see what all the fuss about. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| dalyc wrote: | | David wrote: | | It's a dynamic that prioritises media profits over young men's freedom and privacy. I don't know how that paradigm can be broken, but I think it would help if intelligent people called it out for what it is. |
Wow David. Your arrogance really knows no bounds. People who have an alternate view to you aren't intelligent? |
No, I was saying the exact opposite – read my post again and you'll see. The problem here, as I was saying, is that there are many intelligent people who fail to think outside the box on this and who simply rehash the same old house of cards arguments about role models and "the brand". I find that disappointing. If a greater number of people took a critical approach to this, we would surely see some kind of progress.
| dalyc wrote: | | so you'd be comfortable with a club captain that displayed your 3 requisite qualities who was also a bigoted, rascist, white supremacist, , drug using, tax avoider? |
Yes, on the proviso that it didn't affect their job, keeping in mind of course that they have to be a leader and teammate to people of varying ethnicities and cultural backgrounds. I'm sure there have been many great footballers who were privately racist and didn't allow it to affect their on-field performance. Frankly, I couldn't care less and I don't see why you should either.
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dalyc
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| David wrote: | | dalyc wrote: | | David wrote: | | It's a dynamic that prioritises media profits over young men's freedom and privacy. I don't know how that paradigm can be broken, but I think it would help if intelligent people called it out for what it is. |
Wow David. Your arrogance really knows no bounds. People who have an alternate view to you aren't intelligent? |
No, I was saying the exact opposite – read my post again and you'll see. The problem here, as I was saying, is that there are many intelligent people who fail to think outside the box on this and who simply rehash the same old house of cards arguments about role models and "the brand". I find that disappointing. If a greater number of people took a critical approach to this, we would surely see some kind of progress.
| dalyc wrote: | | so you'd be comfortable with a club captain that displayed your 3 requisite qualities who was also a bigoted, rascist, white supremacist, , drug using, tax avoider? |
Yes, on the proviso that it didn't affect their job, keeping in mind of course that they have to be a leader and teammate to people of varying ethnicities and cultural backgrounds. I'm sure there have been many great footballers who were privately racist and didn't allow it to affect their on-field performance. Frankly, I couldn't care less and I don't see why you should either. |
So, as long as the white supremacist leader of the club maintains his racism privately then that's alright?
Ok, let's say he gets a swastika tattoo on his upper arm but when asked about it he says "no comment" then you would support him as a club captain?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That'd be a matter for the playing group, I think. If it made them uncomfortable, then obviously that would affect team unity and performance. That's why I said 'privately'; public proclamations of racism are likely to make teammates feel unsafe and thus be a problem. I still see that as an in-club issue, though.
To provide a real-life example, I once worked with a guy who on one occasion made disparaging remarks about Jewish customers and confided to me that he understood why Hitler did what he did. My partner and young son are Jewish, for the record. I think he's a bit of an idiot, but I'm not going to demand that he repents for his political beliefs or try to get him fired for them - I simply argued the point with him, then encouraged him to keep his thoughts on the subject to himself and never again broached the subject.
How would you have handled that situation? Would you be leading a Twitter campaign to get him sacked? What other political positions do you think are unacceptable for a football player to hold?
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | That'd be a matter for the playing group, I think. If it made them uncomfortable, then obviously that would affect team unity and performance. That's why I said 'privately'; public proclamations of racism are likely to make teammates feel unsafe and thus be a problem. I still see that as an in-club issue, though.
To provide a real-life example, I once worked with a guy who on one occasion made disparaging remarks about Jewish customers and confided to me that he understood why Hitler did what he did. My partner and young son are Jewish, for the record. I think he's a bit of an idiot, but I'm not going to demand that he repents for his political beliefs or try to get him fired for them - I simply argued the point with him, then encouraged him to keep his thoughts on the subject to himself and never again broached the subject.
How would you have handled that situation? Would you be leading a Twitter campaign to get him sacked? What other political positions do you think are unacceptable for a football player to hold? |
I wish that you were representative of the progressive left David, I really do. To be fair though, the left tend to be the ones who hate the Jews and the right defend them (see Israel boycotts etc).
To stay at least a bit on topic I'll give your posting on this a large +1 |
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dalyc
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| David wrote: | That'd be a matter for the playing group, I think. If it made them uncomfortable, then obviously that would affect team unity and performance. That's why I said 'privately'; public proclamations of racism are likely to make teammates feel unsafe and thus be a problem. I still see that as an in-club issue, though.
To provide a real-life example, I once worked with a guy who on one occasion made disparaging remarks about Jewish customers and confided to me that he understood why Hitler did what he did. My partner and young son are Jewish, for the record. I think he's a bit of an idiot, but I'm not going to demand that he repents for his political beliefs or try to get him fired for them - I simply argued the point with him, then encouraged him to keep his thoughts on the subject to himself and never again broached the subject.
How would you have handled that situation? Would you be leading a Twitter campaign to get him sacked? What other political positions do you think are unacceptable for a football player to hold? |
I'm playing devil's advocate and have no particular political criteria for such appointments. I just think that there is a reasonableness test that club captains especially need to conform to. I don't think your 3 criteria are sufficient.
Using the swastika example, I don't think that that passes the reasonableness test regardless of what a playing group may think.
On your jew hating colleague, I'd probably have done no different to you. But if the person was the CEO? That's a different question.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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I would have called him out on it. Disparaging someone publicly because of their religion is not ok, and wishing they were all dead is not ok. Or do only indigenous people get that protection?
Re the role model thing, kids grow up kicking a ball in the yard and "doing a hanger like Jezza" or a doing a grand final save like Williams. I wouldn't want my kid emulating, hero worshiping or even just cheering on some ^&*^*% with a swastika tattooed on their arm, face or anywhere else. Or flaunting their drug taking like Ben cousins.
Have you never watched the TV add where the kids copy dad generation after generation, getting the beer from the fridge? You may not like it but it's there, it's real and it must be taken into consideration. After all, mums do the grocery shopping, and most of the clothes shopping, and if they decide not to buy Adidas cos the latest big name got caught drink driving on his way home from cheating on his wife while high as a kite on cocaine, then Adidas will not sponsor that player, that team. Just the way the TAC dropped us like a hot spud.
They ain't just paid to kick a football to the best of their ability, they are selling a brand, that brand is Collingwood, supported by other brands. supported by the buying public.
It's human nature. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | Have you never watched the TV add where the kids copy dad generation after generation, getting the beer from the fridge? You may not like it but it's there, it's real and it must be taken into consideration. |
This has been covered in greater depth before, but the issue at stake here is that parents are role models. The way young kids perceive AFL players, on the other hand, is closer to cartoon characters on TV. It's not the same thing at all, and I'd argue vigorously against the contention that children model their behaviour after players' off-field personas.
The sponsorship issue is a much more complex one. Basically, I see it as a bit of a house of cards founded on a misinterpretation of what a 'brand' is and the way most people actually perceive it in the real world. When it gets conflated with personal reputation, that's when it starts to seem vital that players keep their noses clean. I think that paradigm can collapse, though, and there's reason to believe that it will.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Use all the educated language you want, but if the great unwashed don't part with their dollars, the sponsor will leave. Like I said it may not be right, (though I don't have a problem with it for the most part) but it is human nature.
Oh and I miss cadburys!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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