Gun laws in USA??
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Wokko wrote: | David wrote: | Haha, no, happy for DTM to be the resident Dave.
re: the article, the odd chance of being able to prevent a rape, mugging or other form of unexpected physical assault with a gun (provided you're able to use it on time and don't end up being disarmed and having it used against you) hardly outweighs the potential harm caused by accidental discharges, suicides, escalated interpersonal conflicts and the odd campus shooting spree.
Anyhow, college dorm date rapes aside not the sort of thing that most people have a loaded gun prepared for how many women actually get raped on campus? Is there an epidemic of male students hiding in the bushes waiting for their next victim? And what on earth does that have to do with students being given the right to bring firearms into class? |
No the college rape epidemic is largely nonsense, but the right of self defence and therefore the means to do so is enshrined in the US Constitution. Women cannot defend themselves without a weapon and as the young lady in the article says, even with training and something non lethal like pepper spray a woman is still vulnerable.
As for Campus shootings, they've all bar one occurred as far as I know in Universities that ban firearms with Oregon being the exception.
What's really difficult about this issue is that nobody seems to want to be neutral. Statistics are used and abused by both sides, the same facts are distorted and used by both sides of the argument and nobody is really willing to change their viewpoint.
In Australia I'd be happy for a return of sanity and repealing Howard's gun laws that did nothing more than demonize and punish law abiding shooters. And if I hear one more bullshitter reel off the 'no mass shootings since Port Arthur' crap when my partner still has PTSD after being at Monash during the mass shooting there I'll flip the **** out. |
My girlfriend was there that day too, but she was saved by being 90 minutes late to class as usual (true story). Punctuality has never been her strong suit.
I often think of that shooting too when people bring up Bryant, but only two died and five were injured would we even hear about that if it happened in the US?
Actually, according to American terminology, a shooting only qualifies as a 'public mass shooting' if four or more people are killed. So the people who say we haven't had a mass shooting since Port Arthur are technically correct.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shooting
That's 0 in 20 years, while America had 27 in 2015 alone. Even adjusting for population size, that's pretty remarkable. Proportionally, we should be having at least 2 mass shootings a year, and 40 such incidents in the last 20 years. Indeed, we had 14 shooting massacres in 15 years culminating in the Port Arthur shooting, and that's in a country with far less of a gun 'culture' than America. Don't the statistics speak for themselves? Is it a coincidence that these incidents stopped dead after the gun buyback? Or is having one such incident a year just unavoidable collateral damage, something which must be deemed a lower priority than the right to own firearms?
(Local shootings data here:)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia
When an American is that much more likely to be a victim of a mass shooting than an Australian is now, wouldn't you say that's a rather specific problem? And perhaps one in which policy may play some role? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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And yet almost none prior to 1970 when laws and attitudes were even more lax. It's culture, not bans that determine when shootings or massacres happen and also how a society handles its seriously mentally ill. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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I'll grant you culture, but there's never just one factor in these things. Australia didn't fundamentally change in 1996, but two things did: gun ownership rates, and the frequency of mass shootings. That is either an extraordinary coincidence or else the best vindication Howard could have possibly hoped for.
You clearly think he was wrong. How would you have proposed he respond to Port Arthur, and how confident are you that your suggestion would have had an anywhere near similarly impressive effect on these rates? _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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David wrote: | I'll grant you culture, but there's never just one factor in these things. Australia didn't fundamentally change in 1996, but two things did: gun ownership rates, and the frequency of mass shootings. That is either an extraordinary coincidence or else the best vindication Howard could have possibly hoped for.
You clearly think he was wrong. How would you have proposed he respond to Port Arthur, and how confident are you that your suggestion would have had an anywhere near similarly impressive effect on these rates? |
Where did you get that data from about gun ownership? My instinctive reaction is that it's bogus.
Edit, I realised what you were trying to say.
Yes, gun ownership reduced in 1996 with the gun buy back, but not that significantly as no one actually knows how many guns were in private hands prior to that.
The national baseline started in 1996 when people handed in some guns, registered a few others and left the rest in the wardrobe.
This is why the data shows that gun ownership has supposedly been increasing since 1996, because now they have to be registered when you purchase them and you can't just go to a blokes house, pay some cash and drive away with a bootload of guns like I could do when I was 16-17 up bush.
If you actually consider the number of firearms that were in private hands prior to when they started counting in 1996, the number of shootings, mass or otherwise, was still very low. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007 Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I'm one who's always been on the right to have a gun side, but, open carry on campus? . Ridiculous. _________________ Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Skids wrote: | I'm one who's always been on the right to have a gun side, but, open carry on campus? . Ridiculous. |
If I had to go to uni these days I'd really want a gun on me.
Actually, you're right, probably a bad idea. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I think the last gun ban was the Secret Service's doing. Not sure who can tell them 'no'. |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010 Location: Lulie Street
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This gun ban is made by the venue itself.
http://www.theqarena.com/arena-info/policies
The GOP chose a venue for their National Convention that bans guns! Ridiculous decision.
How on earth can Trump, Cruz or Kasich be made safe - everyone will be disarmed and 'sitting ducks'. Kasich is Governor of Ohio, he should step in and allow free carry.
Here's the petition that asks for the arena to allow guns in to the Convention. Sign up for freedom! Protect The Donald!
https://www.change.org/p/quicken-loans-arena-allow-open-carry-of-firearms-at-the-quicken-loans-arena-during-the-rnc-convention-in-july-2
The main points of the petition - the "fine detail" that Trump said he was unaware of are;
1. The Arena should suspend its ban on free carry of firearms.
2. The NRA should advocate so that states like Ohio don't have such loopholes
3. Kasich as Ohio Governor needs to also advocate to close such loopholes
4. Those in charge of the Republican Party who chose the venue should be immediately brought to task
5. All 3 candidates - Trump, Cruz & Kasich should now publicly push for all attending to be free to bring their firearms to the Convention. |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006 Location: Thailand
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What could go wrong.With every second dickhead wearing a beard and a shot is fired suddenly 10000 people shoot the nearest person looking like a muslim or a few hundred are mortally wounded in the crossfire so shoot back. _________________ Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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^ I'm not in favour of eugenics, but a shootout at the Republican convention might just improve the gene pool... _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Get in the middle of the crowd, yell out "Allah Akbar" as loud as you can then hit the deck. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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stui magpie wrote: | ^
Get in the middle of the crowd, yell out "Allah Akbar" as loud as you can then hit the deck. |
Bloody Skids - I cant hear or read that anymore - without thinking "Aloha Snackbar" _________________ “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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stui magpie wrote: | ^
Get in the middle of the crowd, yell out "Allah Akbar" as loud as you can then hit the deck. |
Something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ9_re7f1A _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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