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Transgender athletes back on the agenda

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:58 pm
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David wrote:
cis = not trans.


So .... normal? Ie a woman?

Whatthe ****! Seriouslythatsdemented!

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:04 pm
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I haven't changed my view on this, but while we push to ban women who used to be male athletes from competing against women athletes, we'll get kickback.

So let them compete. See if the results show an unfair advantage or not. If it does, roll it back because there'll be data to support that decision.

If that means a generation of people are disadvantaged, so be it. Truth will find it's own level.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:17 pm
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Not the worst approach, imo.

think positive wrote:
David wrote:
cis = not trans.


So .... normal? Ie a woman?

Whatthe ****! Seriouslythatsdemented!


Only if you think transgender women aren’t women, in which case you might well roll your eyes. But that’s not the legal, social or increasingly cultural status quo, so it makes sense to have a term to distinguish "regular" women from transgender women, and "cisgender" (or "cis" for short, from the Latin for "on this side of [something]" – i.e. the opposite of "trans") is the one that’s been in use over the past couple of decades. I’m sure many heterosexual people similarly scoffed at being called "straight" back in the day, but that term seems to be generally accepted now. As I said in the other thread where we were discussing non-binary identification, something being unfamiliar doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be particularly complicated or unwieldy.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:16 pm
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yeah nah, ill stick with woman, dad, mum, or even mom, and Stui, i totally disagree, a generation of women, WOMEN, not PEOPLE, just WOMEN, who have had to fight long enough for equality.

She can live, work, go to the loo, etc etc etc as a female, but she should never be allowed to compete with natural born women.

and quite frankly any transgender who wins this way, breaks a record, should be ashamed of themselves and how they could possibly believe its fair is beyond me!

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Lord Maximus Farquaad Aries



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:34 pm
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think positive wrote:
RIP woman’s sport and the Olympics, what a $�$%^%%$ joke. And no I’m not phobic at all, I feel disgusted for all the woman who worked so $�$%^%%$ hard for all the years to get there, to be beaten by a male body. She may be a She now but for at least 18 years she was a he, with male hormones, male muscles and bones, which are totally different from the female version.

The solution? Compete before you go through the change, ordont compete, or have their own section.

This is an absolute farce.


Have a look at the video of the final of the women's 800 metres track at the 2016 Olympics. The first 3 women embraced each other after the race. They had just seen their lifetimes dreams and ambitions crushed. They finished 4th, 5th and 6th.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:21 pm
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Lots of people spend a substantial portion of their lives training hard for a gold medal; it doesn't mean that they are entitled to one. In that race, the three fastest women, also elite and gifted runners who put long hours and years into training and qualifying, got the three medals. (LMF is referring to the fact that Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui – who are in all other respects women who were born as women – all have intersex characteristics leading to higher testosterone counts.)

I'm not sure the prospect of sore losers doing a "right in front of me" routine ought to be a reason to crush the three African women's lifetime dreams and ambitions – and I think any person interested in questions of fairness in sport would feel for Semenya and, at worst, recognise cases like hers as extraordinarily thorny ones, even more so than questions about transgender participation in sport – but then, in these debates, it's often pretty transparent how far people's sympathies extend.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:55 pm
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By the way, here's an article about another "genetic freak" (the article's wording, not mine) whose unusual physical characteristics also seem to make him impossible to defeat, yet whom nobody seems to have a problem with. You might call him the Caster Semenya of men's sprinting:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34089451

Quote:
even among top sprinters, Bolt stands out, and this is partly because of his height.

"Bolt is a genetic freak because being 6ft 5ins tall means he shouldn't be able to accelerate at the speed he does given the length of his legs," says former Great Britain sprinter Craig Pickering.

"At the beginning of a race you want to take short steps in order to accelerate, but because he's so tall he can't do that. But then when he reaches top speed he has a massive advantage over everyone else because he's taking far fewer steps."


When it comes to athletes, biological advantages extend way beyond chromosomes, hormones and sex difference. You're never going to get an even playing field in which only the most dedicated and hardest-training runner wins, and we need to get rid of any notion that these elite competitions are purely about effort being rewarded. Accepting that may not change your mind on whether transgender or intersex people should be able to participate in women's sport, but it should at least allow us to get rid of some of the background noise about deserving and undeserving winners.

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Lord Maximus Farquaad Aries



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:04 pm
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David wrote:
Lots of people spend a substantial portion of their lives training hard for a gold medal; it doesn't mean that they are entitled to one. In that race, the three fastest women, also elite and gifted runners who put long hours and years into training and qualifying, got the three medals. (LMF is referring to the fact that Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui – who are in all other respects women who were born as women – all have intersex characteristics leading to higher testosterone counts.)

I'm not sure the prospect of sore losers doing a "right in front of me" routine ought to be a reason to crush the three African women's lifetime dreams and ambitions – and I think any person interested in questions of fairness in sport would feel for Semenya and, at worst, recognise cases like hers as extraordinarily thorny ones, even more so than questions about transgender participation in sport – but then, in these debates, it's often pretty transparent how far people's sympathies extend.


Stick to the facts. Who said anything about an entitlement to a gold medal?

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Lord Maximus Farquaad Aries



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:10 pm
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David wrote:
By the way, here's an article about another "genetic freak" (the article's wording, not mine) whose unusual physical characteristics also seem to make him impossible to defeat, yet whom nobody seems to have a problem with. You might call him the Caster Semenya of men's sprinting:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34089451

Quote:
even among top sprinters, Bolt stands out, and this is partly because of his height.

"Bolt is a genetic freak because being 6ft 5ins tall means he shouldn't be able to accelerate at the speed he does given the length of his legs," says former Great Britain sprinter Craig Pickering.

"At the beginning of a race you want to take short steps in order to accelerate, but because he's so tall he can't do that. But then when he reaches top speed he has a massive advantage over everyone else because he's taking far fewer steps."


When it comes to athletes, biological advantages extend way beyond chromosomes, hormones and sex difference. You're never going to get an even playing field in which only the most dedicated and hardest-training runner wins, and we need to get rid of any notion that these elite competitions are purely about effort being rewarded. Accepting that may not change your mind on whether transgender or intersex people should be able to participate in women's sport, but it should at least allow us to get rid of some of the background noise about deserving and undeserving winners.


Everyone that has ever played sport at any level at all, or watched any sport, knows that effort being rewarded is just one factor that determines who wins. I think that covers everyone. Ever hear of Ablett Snr? And in women's sport, Liz Cambage. They are two examples of reaching the top without putting in the effort that others do.

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:29 pm
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think positive wrote:
yeah nah, ill stick with woman, dad, mum, or even mom, and Stui, i totally disagree, a generation of women, WOMEN, not PEOPLE, just WOMEN, who have had to fight long enough for equality. !


I am on the same side on this argument, particularly when someone has trained as an athlete with the advantages male physiology provides and then transitions to females and wants to compete.

The problem as I see it is that just pushing back against an ever increasing tide won't work. The only way to prove the point is to allow competition and see what happens.

I don't buy into either the arguments about the people who were born intersex, and David's argument about Bolt is a red-herring. Firstly he still had to train to realise his potential and second comparing a slow and fast male to physiological male and females just doesn't equate.

The argument comes down to rights vs fairness and in the current day, rights win.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:02 pm
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Lord Maximus Farquaad wrote:
David wrote:
Lots of people spend a substantial portion of their lives training hard for a gold medal; it doesn't mean that they are entitled to one. In that race, the three fastest women, also elite and gifted runners who put long hours and years into training and qualifying, got the three medals. (LMF is referring to the fact that Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui – who are in all other respects women who were born as women – all have intersex characteristics leading to higher testosterone counts.)

I'm not sure the prospect of sore losers doing a "right in front of me" routine ought to be a reason to crush the three African women's lifetime dreams and ambitions – and I think any person interested in questions of fairness in sport would feel for Semenya and, at worst, recognise cases like hers as extraordinarily thorny ones, even more so than questions about transgender participation in sport – but then, in these debates, it's often pretty transparent how far people's sympathies extend.


Stick to the facts. Who said anything about an entitlement to a gold medal?


Your post suggested that the 4th, 5th and 6th placegetters had unfairly missed out on a podium finish, with the typical emotive language that crops up in discussions like this: "They had just seen their lifetimes dreams and ambitions crushed."

Every Olympic final will have a majority of competitors who don't get a medal – whether that means their lifetime dreams and ambitions have been crushed is probably a question of how half-full your or their glass is (some would say making an Olympic final is a pretty impressive achievement in its own right), but in any case one wouldn't usually put it that way unless one were implying that some great misfortune or injustice had occurred.

In this case, nothing of the sort happened: the trio simply got beaten by faster opponents.

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Lord Maximus Farquaad Aries



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:26 pm
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You're changing your argument again. First you talk about an entitlement to a gold medal, now you have watered it down to a podium finish.

Where does this end? No male or female competition, or for those a bit of each, just one competition for everyone?

This is an inane discussion. On one hand we have to have three women on our board, but on the other there don't have to be any women in a women's event in the Olympics.

It will be funny though if in the weightlifting Kiwi <snip> wins a gold medal for the best snatch.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:08 pm
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The argument is that those legally considered women (whatever your opinion of their legitimacy) be permitted to compete in women’s sporting events. I’m not aware of a more radical proposal than that; while you can infer whatever slippery slope you please, just as same-sex marriage hasn’t led to people marrying golden retrievers, I think it’s fair to consider this question under the terms presented.
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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:02 pm
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^

You're talking about the difference between ideology and physiology/biology, between gender and sex.

Sports base their rules on sex, not gender.

Yes some people have genetic or skill based advantages over others. How many white men have won the Olympic 100m sprint in the past 30 years?

That's not the same as having biological men competing against biological women.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:39 pm
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Lord Maximus Farquaad wrote:
David wrote:
Lots of people spend a substantial portion of their lives training hard for a gold medal; it doesn't mean that they are entitled to one. In that race, the three fastest women, also elite and gifted runners who put long hours and years into training and qualifying, got the three medals. (LMF is referring to the fact that Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui – who are in all other respects women who were born as women – all have intersex characteristics leading to higher testosterone counts.)

I'm not sure the prospect of sore losers doing a "right in front of me" routine ought to be a reason to crush the three African women's lifetime dreams and ambitions – and I think any person interested in questions of fairness in sport would feel for Semenya and, at worst, recognise cases like hers as extraordinarily thorny ones, even more so than questions about transgender participation in sport – but then, in these debates, it's often pretty transparent how far people's sympathies extend.


Stick to the facts. Who said anything about an entitlement to a gold medal?


yep,

just entitled to a fair go

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