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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:50 pm
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What is it with holding polling during the working week? Confused

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but I understand the UK uses first past the post rather than preferential voting like we do. Could be very interesting to see how many seats are won with less than 50% of the vote.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:19 pm
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For extra points, why Corbyn can't win.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-12/jeremy-corbyn-is-most-unpopular-leader-in--british-politics/11786960

Yes it involves polls but also alleged analysis.

Not being a follower of British Politics apart from the Brexit sideshow, I hadn't read this stuff before.

Quote:
The stench of anti-Semitism
After his early victories, secure in the leadership, Mr Corbyn and his allies cemented control of the party apparatus around him. A hardcore of believers, and thousands of new members, electrified by Mr Corbyn's radicalism, shifted the Labour Party to the far left. The checks and balances steadily eroded.

Which is why the firestorm of anti-Semitism has been impossible for Mr Corbyn to extinguish.

Despite his repeated promises to crack down on the problem, an anti-Jewish culture has flourished under his watch. Almost weekly there have been revelations of anti-Jewish words and actions from his party members, and there have been repeated accusations, all denied, that he himself harbours anti-Semitic sentiments.


That's the first I've read of these accusations. Confused

On the other hand, he seems to have Peter Pan syndrome. Fixed his world view at an early age and stuck with it.

Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn is railing against "cuts, closures and poverty". He's campaigning to build more homes, and to fight fewer wars. He's condemning the Tories for creating a "divided and unequal society".

But these are snippets not from his 2019 bid for Downing Street. They were his slogans in 1983, when he first ran for Parliament.

The simple fact is the Labour leader has never changed his views.

In the late 1970s and 1980s he and his staunch left-wing colleague John McDonnell, now the shadow chancellor, promised a revolution to upend the Western capitalist order.

And yet, in 2015, as he was fighting to take over the leadership of the party, he was pledging the same: "Capitalism is in its death throes!"

It's not mere sloganeering. His policy agenda over the past year has been: renationalise British utilities and trains, cap all wages, and force large companies to transfer 10 per cent of their equity to their employees.


With the conservatives basically self destructing, this guy is the best Labour can do?

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:24 am
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^The anti-Semitism claims have been in the news for the last year here, as has the Beige Cardigan's unelectability. Yet still he and the party press on repeating the same mantras.

Unfortunately, Blair poisoned the Labour centre-right with Afghanistan and Iraq, so the musty old left got to take over the party. Imagine all the old unionists you hate being raised from the dead and put in charge.

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:40 am
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The anti-Semitism allegation are, and always have been, a cynical beat-up. It's a disgrace that the mainstream media has given them so much airtime and allowed them to distract from the much worse record (and actual racism) of their opponents. That a dedicated anti-racism campaigner like Corbyn could be smeared with that brush while a guy like Johnson who's spent his career in the public eye dropping casual racial slurs reaps the benefits is a pretty sick joke.

Also, there's no shame in consistent, principled politics. A few of the weathervanes here in both major parties could take a leaf out of his book.

Anyway, the exit polls are out and looks like the Conservatives are going to win by a landslide, so that's that I guess. I'm sure the Blairites will be back with a vengeance very soon – what an improvement that'll be.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:14 am
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Exit poll: Conservative 368, Labour 191, Liberal Democrats 13, SNP 55
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:02 am
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David wrote:
Also, there's no shame in consistent, principled politics. A few of the weathervanes here in both major parties could take a leaf out of his book.

Yes, there is shame; the shame of a lack of self awareness, new ideas and an ability to learn and adjust. Plenty of people you don't want leading anything are 'consistent'. The alternative to a pathological liar and charlatan like Johnson isn't an unelectable drone repeating old Marxian slogans.

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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:17 pm
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Matthew Goodwin (Politics professor)

"'The narrative' is already emerging. Replace Mr Corbyn and all shall be well. Not so. Labour's problem is that it's breaking into 3 parties (1) liberal degree-holding Brahmin Left, (2) dwindling blue-collar, socially conservative Traditional Left, (3) students + ethnic minorities"

The same thing that I said about Labor in Australia. The left is in a cold civil war around the world, trying to find its identity in a world of its own creation.
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thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:52 pm
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IMPEACH BORIS!
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:10 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Matthew Goodwin (Politics professor)

"'The narrative' is already emerging. Replace Mr Corbyn and all shall be well. Not so. Labour's problem is that it's breaking into 3 parties (1) liberal degree-holding Brahmin Left, (2) dwindling blue-collar, socially conservative Traditional Left, (3) students + ethnic minorities"

The same thing that I said about Labor in Australia. The left is in a cold civil war around the world, trying to find its identity in a world of its own creation.


Are the right any less fractured? Everything looks rosy when you're getting into power, and Johnson may well have a more comfortable prime ministership than either Cameron or May enjoyed, but there are still a lot of bandaids being put over the cracks.

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:26 pm
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The Right is factional too sure; Populists (Trump, Johnson), Religious conservative (Abbott, Dutton) and Moderate/Neo Con (May, Turnbull, Romney). But somehow the right always seems to get behind the guy who wins and kind of hold their nose until it looks like they're a surefire loser. The left is eating itself alive (Bernie Bros vs Clinton).

Australia has probably found the balance on the Right, Morrison is a bit of everything. Whether he's just putting on hats ala Eddie McGuire or is a genuine right/centrist able to keep a foot in all the camps remains to be seen.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:11 pm
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David wrote:
Wokko wrote:
Matthew Goodwin (Politics professor)

"'The narrative' is already emerging. Replace Mr Corbyn and all shall be well. Not so. Labour's problem is that it's breaking into 3 parties (1) liberal degree-holding Brahmin Left, (2) dwindling blue-collar, socially conservative Traditional Left, (3) students + ethnic minorities"

The same thing that I said about Labor in Australia. The left is in a cold civil war around the world, trying to find its identity in a world of its own creation.


Are the right any less fractured? Everything looks rosy when you're getting into power, and Johnson may well have a more comfortable prime ministership than either Cameron or May enjoyed, but there are still a lot of bandaids being put over the cracks.

Every time someone wins an election, they assert (and the media agrees) that they have become “the natural party of government”. That’s probably true, too, for about a week.

As you say, victory puts bandaids over cracks.

Looking at the apparently substantial change in voting (about a 10% swing to the Conservatives), it looks a lot like many just want Brexit done and dusted and want a “strong” leader to get that done. I have no particular fondness for Corbyn but any reasonable analysis says that he’s not been much different this election than last, so plainly other, bigger factors than who was delivering (or not) the Labour “message” (if there was one) are at work. That’s not to say that he should stay or that Labour doesn’t have other, more fundamental, problems, merely that those are probably not the big reason for this result.

Everything is, of course, temporary and if Brexit delivers a damp, uneconomic squib to the people who aren’t Johnson’s natural constituency, one can expect a rapid readjustment of alignments. It’s one thing to tell people that they stand at the edge of the Promised Land and ask that they help you walk them into it. It’s another thing altogether if the Promised Land tends to feel more like Purgatory after you’ve spent a bit of time there.

Unlike in the US, I doubt that the conservatives in the UK will be able to position themselves as billionaire “underdogs” protecting the public from billionaire progressives - whatever the Labour Party is, it isn’t the Democrats.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:12 pm
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David wrote:
The anti-Semitism allegation are, and always have been, a cynical beat-up. It's a disgrace that the mainstream media has given them so much airtime and allowed them to distract from the much worse record (and actual racism) of their opponents. That a dedicated anti-racism campaigner like Corbyn could be smeared with that brush while a guy like Johnson who's spent his career in the public eye dropping casual racial slurs reaps the benefits is a pretty sick joke.

Also, there's no shame in consistent, principled politics. A few of the weathervanes here in both major parties could take a leaf out of his book.

Anyway, the exit polls are out and looks like the Conservatives are going to win by a landslide, so that's that I guess. I'm sure the Blairites will be back with a vengeance very soon – what an improvement that'll be.


Ahem not quite hariy legs.

A few facts:

1. There is anti-semtism in both the Tories and Labour
2. There is anti-semtitism in Labour
3. You can be anti zionist and not anti semitic
4. You can be anti zionist and anti -semitic
5. Labour admitted there was anti semtisim in its ranks but fumbled badly, handled it ineptly and marginalized the jewish voting community.
6. Corbyn in particular was equivical and needed to be dragged into treating the issue seriously

To say it is a "beat up" ignores reality and dismisses the antisemtism experienced by an anxious jewish community who usually overwhelmingly vote labour and are anti-Tory.

Momentum (British Labour's far left who control the party now) managed to polarize and lose the Jewish vote let alone their traditional vote in spades.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/jeremy-corbyn-fact-and-fiction-stephen-pollard-1.494040

No beat up. Corbyn fumbled as he did on Brexit. He was equivical. Of course the left say they can't be accused of anti semitism (because they are so pure).

Having said that I'll reiterate Tory anti semitism is more widespread and ingranied including from Boris himself but Labour anti semtiism beat up it's not.

"...The Labour party has a serious racism problem..."

Former officials made allegations over racism complaints and the party’s handling of them under Jeremy Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/11/bbc-panorama-antisemitism-labour-racism-jeremy-corbyn

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Last edited by watt price tully on Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:22 pm
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pietillidie wrote:
David wrote:
Also, there's no shame in consistent, principled politics. A few of the weathervanes here in both major parties could take a leaf out of his book.

Yes, there is shame; the shame of a lack of self awareness, new ideas and an ability to learn and adjust. Plenty of people you don't want leading anything are 'consistent'. The alternative to a pathological liar and charlatan like Johnson isn't an unelectable drone repeating old Marxian slogans.


Correct weight.

BTW PTID, where in the UK do you live?

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:01 pm
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LibDem leader Jo Swinson loses seat to SNP.
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Jezza Taurus

2023 PREMIERS!


Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End

PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:07 pm
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Fantastic result.

Great to see the end of Corbynism and the reaffirmation from the British people that they want to see Brexit finally happen.

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