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Pi 
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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^
No its not, if a private enterprise service is crap it usually goes out of business, if a government service is crap it lingers on for decades protected by a huge ever increasing bureaucracy.
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Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Certainly true when it comes to resources such as Telstra,
Public housing is good but abused
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Pi, that's the myth.
The reality is that a great many quite awful private enterprises survive for years, decades, sometimes even centuries. Adam Smith thought that couldn't happen. Adam Smith was wrong. Large, lousy enterprises get really good at finding ways to own the market and nobble the competition.
TP: since when was Telstra good? It was carp as a government organisation, then got even worse when privatised. (Back in the day, when we were little kids, it was actually very good - indeed a world leader in many fields. It had a different name then but it was the very same organisation we now call Telstra.) Telstra is now only medium-bad, but don't hold your breath. It's unlikely to get much better. It is as good an example as any other: the organisation does what the organisation does. Pretending that the ultimate ownership is what changes corporate culture and behaviour when the worldwide evidence flatly contradicts that view is just silly.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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It comes down how much you get governments to do; the more services they have to provide the worse they get.
I agree with you about large companies, most of them become like governments eventually.
Just for fun; lets all name our favorite government department.
ok... not Centrelink
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| The PMG. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Tannin wrote: | | Pi wrote: | | The problem is anything governments provide is basically sh!t |
^ Unsubstantiated rubbish, and demonstrably untrue. For every example you can cite of a bad government-provided service, there is an example of a bad private-enterprise service (very often worse), and there is an example of an excellent government-provided service.
In fact, the quality of services varies enormously for many different reasons and it is hopelessly simple-minded to pretend that there is an all-the-world ideological cause. |
Correct weight on all counts. This ideological nonsense that private enterprise can do things better than government 🙄
Exhibit one: The US health system.
Exhibit two: NDIS
Exhibit three: utilities in Victoria
Exhibit four: Industry Superannuation vs Private
Yes private enterprise: privatise the profits and socialise the costs
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Pi wrote: | ^
It comes down how much you get governments to do; the more services they have to provide the worse they get.
I agree with you about large companies, most of them become like governments eventually.
Just for fun; lets all name our favorite government department.
ok... not Centrelink
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What planet are you living on. Since Abbott they’ve been progressively privatising Centrelink: robodebt ring any bells?
Of course private nursing homes have done such a marvelous job haven’t they?
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | The PMG. |
lol,you mean Post-Master General? pre NBN when the phones worked during a blackout?
...good argument for and against government control.
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Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | Ha, imagine having to live like that, hey David, considering your rants about the towers a few weeks back, you wouldn’t last 5 min. And I bet they don’t have lifts!
The right to have a bigger house? That’s not what it’s about, the right to work for, aim for and achieve the goal of your choosing, wether it’s a big house, lots of long holidays, a masarati or simply a good payout for your kids when you depart the earth. |
Armenia hasn't been a communist country for thirty years. If people are still living in those buildings and they haven't undergone extensive renovations and/or been demolished, then I'm not sure this is the own against communism you and Pi think it is. Really, though, I doubt this has anything much to do with communism vs capitalism – it's a picture that could have been taken in just about any third-world (or third-world-adjacent) country, communist or otherwise.
Speaking more broadly, it is true that free government-built housing does tend towards high-density, and I can't say I love it. But my partner actually did grow up in a Soviet apartment block, and she doesn't recall it as being a particularly terrible experience. I wouldn't glamorise Eastern Bloc building practices and I certainly don't glamorise life under communism, but at least people were guaranteed a decent place to live. I don't think the much-vaunted capitalist "freedom" to potentially own a Maserati and a holiday house (while social services and community crumble all around us) has exactly done wonders for us here, frankly, and I'd trade it in in a minute for a society that takes care of everyone and ensures a decent minimum standard of living.
Relevant piece here from a couple years back, incidentally:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-08/the-disappearing-mass-housing-of-the-soviet-union
| Quote: | The Disappearing Mass Housing of the Soviet Union
The grim prefab Khrushchyovka helped solve the USSR’s housing crisis after World War II. Now, Moscow plans to demolish 8,000 of them, displacing more than 1.5 million people. Should any be preserved for posterity?
[…]
Known as Khrushchyovkas—named after the Soviet leader who initiated their mass production in the late 1950s—the distinctly banal architectural type has long outlasted its planned 25-year shelf life. As Khrushchev took power, the USSR’s capital city had twice the population it housing stock could accommodate. Five-story Khrushchyovkas popped up in newly planned microdistricts, designed to house tens of thousands of people in hopes of alleviating the severe housing crisis exacerbated under Joseph Stalin.
Not one for opulence, Khrushchev’s commitment to solving the urban housing shortage was rapid construction with little time (or money) to spend on design. Drab as they were, the final product left rivals impressed. “What the Russians have done” an official from the U.S.’s National Bureau of Standards (now NIST) told the Chicago Tribune in 1967, “is to develop the only technology in the world to produce acceptable, low-cost housing on a large scale.” |
As a relatively far-flung satellite, I doubt Yerevan fared as well architecturally as Moscow. Still, lots of interesting stuff in that piece, and a much more nuanced discussion than "communism = bad, capitalism = good".
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pi wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | The PMG. |
lol,you mean Post-Master General? pre NBN when the phones worked during a blackout?
...good argument for and against government control. |
I have one of those phones sitting on my desk. That was the phone I grew up with, I didn't understand how to use those ones with the circle with numbers on the front.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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hasnt done wonders for who? you personally?
thing is David, we have choice, You have choice. You dont like rentals and landlords but you choose to rent. So buy a house. it might not be where you want to live, but its not impossible. you have a uni degree, you should be capable of earning an income that allows you to do this, hell shop assistants manage it. but you are choosing to live the way you are, in an expensive area, you could move and rent cheaper until you can afford to buy, then just like most people you upgrade as you can afford to. thats what most people do and most people are happy with that. they simply choose to stop when they get to a place they are happy with, for some thats a toorak mansion, for some its a debt free 4 bedroom house in the suburbs (like us!) for others its a little rambling farm house. for others its living in apartments, look at docklands, thats high density but with room for a decent size tv. choice.
its not people who own a masaratti or a holiday house $$%^%%$ up the system and causing "social services and community to crumble all around us" for the most part (yes greedy cheats exist) these are the people who pay for those services.
just think, if all the people who could get out of public housing did, and off of services, maybe the people who really need it, the sick, the old, the damaged, the homeless, might have a fighting chance. Politicians are getting pay rises, fly first class and get massive pensions, and we still have a homeless problem, fix that.
choice is a good thing, for instance if you want to live under communist rule, Australia will let you move there. From what i can see its movement the other way thats difficult and more prized.
Not many people get life handed to them on a platter. most people earn it. dont blame them for that.
your way would not work, there would be no incentive to do more, work harder.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I will.
And don't bother trying to argue government v private, that's a fact free argument that goes on ideology lines when the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I worked for Telecom at the height of it's size and had a close up view of the bloated waste in government run entities such as Telecom, Aus Post and the NSW Water Resources Commission.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | I will.
And don't bother trying to argue government v private, that's a fact free argument that goes on ideology lines when the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I worked for Telecom at the height of it's size and had a close up view of the bloated waste in government run entities such as Telecom, Aus Post and the NSW Water Resources Commission. |
Wait a minute guv'
Pi's premise was that private does things so much better compared to goverment: he was rightly being taken to task for such an obviously wrong and ideologically driven notion. There were just a few current examples to blow a hole or three in that premise.
I don't know Pi from a bar of soap but it's an overused and lazy assumption. I don't want goverment ownership of everything but utilities, water, police, education, and public health should be not negotiable.
The best Nursing homes by far in the pandemic have been the public and not for profit ones because they are not solely driven by profit.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | I will.
And don't bother trying to argue government v private, that's a fact free argument that goes on ideology lines when the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I worked for Telecom at the height of it's size and had a close up view of the bloated waste in government run entities such as Telecom, Aus Post and the NSW Water Resources Commission. |
Wait a minute guv'
Pi's premise was that private does things so much better compared to goverment: he was rightly being taken to task for such an obviously wrong and ideologically driven notion. There were just a few current examples to blow a hole or three in that premise.
I don't know Pi from a bar of soap but it's an overused and lazy assumption. I don't want goverment ownership of everything but utilities, water, police, education, and public health should be not negotiable.
The best Nursing homes by far in the pandemic have been the public and not for profit ones because they are not solely driven by profit. |
so lets just unpack that a bit shall we...
Education: people who run governments send their kids to private schools.
Police: people who run governments have private security.
Public health: people who run governments have private health insurance.
All these people who run governments and advocate for government control refuse to be bound by any of the rules they make for everyone else.
My premise is that the more you get governments to do the less efficient they get. Same goes for large companies with monopolies. A lazy assumption would be that I believe that all government is bad and all private is good.
It has nothing to do with ideology because you find it in every iteration of government type; its just the level of inefficiency that varies.
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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