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Impeach Trump II - Revenge Served Cold

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:04 am
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stui magpie wrote:
I read an article/interview with Solomon Lew about a deal he made that got Trump $45 Mil for a days work. I wish I was that bad a business man.


If you don’t pay your debts and don’t pay tax then that’s a good start. Let’s see how it pans out when he fronts court.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:07 am
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What'sinaname wrote:
^ Forbes estimated that Mr Trump’s net worth had dropped by $600 million in a year to $2.5 billion. That's NET worth, net of debt.

Trump has never been personally bankrupt. Some Trump businesses have been but that's not uncommon. The business is most always a seperate legal entity.


When you don’t pay tax and don’t pay your debt then that’s a good start. Looks like you’ve swallowed the Trump propaganda hook line and sinker; I have two used cars to sell you 😉

Looking forward to the court cases

And if you think the Trump uni thing was just another loss then that’s about as analytical as saying the Bible is about the old days

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education-postsecondary/reports/2017/03/30/429573/trump-university-look-enduring-education-scandal/

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doriswilgus 



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: the great southern land

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:26 am
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stui magpie wrote:
I read an article/interview with Solomon Lew about a deal he made that got Trump $45 Mil for a days work. I wish I was that bad a business man.


If you’re referring to this business deal,then I think you’re giving Trump too much credit,It sounds like it was Solomon Lew who actually did all the work to make the money.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/he-fell-apart-billionaire-solomon-lew-on-the-demise-of-former-business-partner-donald-trump-20210121-p56vwk.html


Last edited by doriswilgus on Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:28 am
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Just for clarity, Trump is already impeached. Twice - the question some of you are turning your attention to is the question whether the Senate will convict him on the charges. Chances are he won't be - no President has ever been found guilty by the Senate. (Trump will, of course, become just the second American President in history to have suffered a Senate majority voting in favour of his removal from office.) It is, however, the process that's important. Winning the vote is only of significance to people who think that political battles of any significance are "won" or "lost" with a particular vote. Let's just wait and see how this all plays out for Trump and the Republicans. The question isn't whether the Senate disqualifies him from office. Rather, it is how much damage the process does to him and his fortunes (you don't have to be convicted for people to stop playing nicely with you) and to the Republican Party. As to the latter, Mitch has said they can exercise a conscience vote. If enough Senate Republicans were to find a conscience to exercise, the incompatibility with their personal metabolisms would likely cause mass spontaneous combustion. Or an extinction event.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:46 am
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Pies4shaw wrote:
Winning the vote is only of significance to people who think that political battles of any significance are "won" or "lost" with a particular vote. Let's just wait and see how this all plays out for Trump and the Republicans. The question isn't whether the Senate disqualifies him from office. Rather, it is how much damage the process does to him and his fortunes (you don't have to be convicted for people to stop playing nicely with you) and to the Republican Party.


My basic impression is that, like the first impeachment, it's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. It'll play into Trump and his supporters' existing victimhood narrative, be cast by most other Republicans as petty score-settling, and that's about it. That's not to say that it was wrong to try it – and if he had been convicted, which he clearly now won't be, then that would have sent a useful message – but what this does indicate beyond doubt is that presidential impeachment as an accountability process has severe limitations, and that in a hyper-partisan system without a shared reality or shared principles, it's pretty much useless, even in a symbolic sense.

To be honest, at this point I'm hoping they get this out of the way quickly so they can focus on something with more real-world impact, which is what the Democrats are going to do now they're the ones in government and actually have a rare majority in both houses. Trump is a convenient distraction and boogieman to have around to shield the Biden administration from scrutiny, and now is a more crucial time than ever for them to be held to account (as well as what agenda they're actually seeking to implement, aside from the necessary but relatively politically easy work of undoing the Trump administration's biggest outrages).

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doriswilgus 



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: the great southern land

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:31 pm
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I don’t think this impeachment trial is a convenient distraction for Biden.I think it’s actually something that’s very old fashioned and decent,something you you don’t see in politics very much anymore.It’s about holding someone to account for their actions.

Trump needs to be held to account for inciting the riot at the capitol and for the many crimes he has committed since the election,like trying to heavy state officials into overturning the election. results in his favour.If that isn’t criminal behaviour,then I don’t know what the hell is.

If there’s no conviction in the senate then sobeit.It’ll be on the Republicans heads if that happens.It’ll just show what a bunch of craven cowards they truly are.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:58 pm
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doriswilgus wrote:
If there’s no conviction in the senate then sobeit.It’ll be on the Republicans heads if that happens.It’ll just show what a bunch of craven cowards they truly are.


There won't be, it will be and, yes, it does. But I really don't think they care, and I don't think it'll do much to affect their support, because the kind of people who vote for them already mostly think this is a stitch-up. It's not how things should be, but it's how they are. So I think as an attempt at holding him to account it's ultimately going to be toothless, and they would be better served pursuing him through the courts, if they have the stomach for it.

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:47 pm
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doriswilgus wrote:
I don’t think this impeachment trial is a convenient distraction for Biden.I think it’s actually something that’s very old fashioned and decent, something you you don’t see in politics very much anymore. It’s about holding someone to account for their actions.


This is the point and the whole of the point.

It is essential to hold wrongdoers to account for their actions. No other policy can restrain the evil greed and madness of people like Trump. They cannot and must not be above the law.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:55 pm
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doriswilgus wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
I read an article/interview with Solomon Lew about a deal he made that got Trump $45 Mil for a days work. I wish I was that bad a business man.


If you’re referring to this business deal,then I think you’re giving Trump too much credit,It sounds like it was Solomon Lew who actually did all the work to make the money.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/he-fell-apart-billionaire-solomon-lew-on-the-demise-of-former-business-partner-donald-trump-20210121-p56vwk.html


Yep. Trump cut the deal for Lew to use his name and all had to do was show up at an event

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PyreneesPie Pisces

PyreneesPie


Joined: 22 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:08 pm
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Tannin wrote:
doriswilgus wrote:
I don’t think this impeachment trial is a convenient distraction for Biden.I think it’s actually something that’s very old fashioned and decent, something you you don’t see in politics very much anymore. It’s about holding someone to account for their actions.


This is the point and the whole of the point.

It is essential to hold wrongdoers to account for their actions. No other policy can restrain the evil greed and madness of people like Trump. They cannot and must not be above the law.


Yep, whole-heartedly agree in principle.

The only misgiving I have is what David said
Quote:
It'll play into Trump and his supporters' existing victimhood narrative
.
Then again the extent of this has been severely curtailed by Trump being banned from Twitter and FB. His voice has been thankfully dulled by these actions. One of the most positive things those social media giants have ever done for the world. Wink Yep, I understand his supporters could still post his responses, but being second-hand, the gloss loses its shine.
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Tannin Capricorn

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:31 pm
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PP, the Trumpistas will scream victimhood no matter bloody what you do. So we might as well just do the right thing and let the cards fall where the cards fall.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:39 pm
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David wrote:
doriswilgus wrote:
If there’s no conviction in the senate then sobeit.It’ll be on the Republicans heads if that happens.It’ll just show what a bunch of craven cowards they truly are.


There won't be, it will be and, yes, it does. But I really don't think they care, and I don't think it'll do much to affect their support, because the kind of people who vote for them already mostly think this is a stitch-up. It's not how things should be, but it's how they are. So I think as an attempt at holding him to account it's ultimately going to be toothless, and they would be better served pursuing him through the courts, if they have the stomach for it.

I think your criticism is misplaced, David.

1. No vote in the Senate, whether by a simple majority or a special majority, is going to persuade Trump's supporters about anything, much. Dealing with neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other common-or-garden conservative nutters is for other bodies.

2. The Senate is about to express and record its thoroughgoing disapproval of Trump's conduct by majority. This will be the second time in the history of the US that the Senate has done so. The Senate has never reached the requisite two-thirds majority to remove a president from office or disqualify her or him from holding public office (it got close, just once, about 150 years ago).

3. As Stui is fond of telling us, the election was won by a tiny fragment of the total vote cast. Thus, it is, in one trivial sense, true that winning California by 5 million votes is the same as winning it by 1 vote. Of course, democratic elections and majorities are usually decided by small movements in the total pool of votes. But that unhelpful abstraction fails to take into due account at least 2 factors. First, it isn't the same tiny fragment that decides each election (which is, of course, why pollsters have to provide post hoc explanations of why their polls were wrong). Secondly, it fails to take account of the larger demographic and political forces that, over time, move - just for example - California from being 55 guaranteed electoral votes for Reagan to 55 guaranteed electoral votes for Biden. A political party that decides to press on with a strategy of trying to secure power by being outvoted nationwide but having more votes in a small number of the "right" places faces political extinction. The Republicans have moved about as far to the right as they can and have embraced every kind of nutter imaginable into their broad church. Even by virtue-signalling to neo-Nazis, they couldn't scrounge together enough votes, hence they are presently in the parlous position (however they might wish to spin it) of being unable to control the White House, the Reps or the Senate. They'll have to scrounge elsewhere - and this debate about Trump will help to shape the views of the people from whom they will try to scrounge votes. They won't be looking to get more neo-Nazis or white supremacists on board - what they need are ordinary, moderate but conservative Americans to come back to them from Biden. Those people - who aren't the natural constituency of a maniac like Trump - will pay attention to this. It is not, I think, a coincidence that Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of a departing first-term president in the country's history (38.6%). Meanwhile, quite a lot of what Biden is doing is playing well with moderate conservatives: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bidens-initial-batch-of-executive-actions-is-popular/ Given that Biden shares many more of their values than they probably imagine (there will, no doubt, be many moderate conservatives who were concerned about the "socialism/communism" shibboleth), there is a genuine prospect that a small but significant sub-population of moderate conservatives who voted against Biden will, in time, come to support him.

4. None of that takes account of the "get off your backside to vote" factor. It's way too early in the cycle to see how that pans out.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:19 pm
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Meanwhile it looks like the Republicans aren't distancing themselves from Trump at least until after next years mid terms with the goal of getting back control of the house.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/28/politics/donald-trump-republican-party/index.html

Quote:
Two roads diverged in American politics, and the Republican Party chose the one traveled by disgraced ex-President Donald Trump and QAnon conspiracy theorists.

While pundits ponder the GOP's future -- and traditionalists hope to change course out of the wreckage left by Trump's insurrection -- Washington's power players and state activists have already made their choice.
Highlighting the former President's lightning fast rehabilitation, the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy will visit Trump in Florida on Thursday after repudiating his own criticism of the incitement of the US Capitol riot.


Just for the record, I'm not suggesting this is a good thing, I'm reporting it. US politics is in serious need of an enema. Trump was elected on the premise he would do that but in the end he just created more shit.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:12 pm
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They have two quite discrete problems. Internal pre-selection numbers obviously make it difficult for anyone who "departs from the Trump base". Standing "with" Trump lets them on the ticket. It doesn't get them elected, though. Hence, the article - amidst an over-analysis of the Republican Party's internal operations - poses more or less the same question I posed above: "Is yet another doubling down on grassroots fury and the Trump base the best way to win back Americans? Especially those in suburban areas who rejected the ex-President who lost the House, the Senate and the White House in a single four-year term?"

As for the vote on Trump in the Senate, I don't expect the Republicans to move against him in large numbers. I would say, though, that a decision to back trying to avoid the argument on the Senate floor on a legal technicality ("look, we can't do this - the Senate has no jurisdiction, now he's gone") is a qualitatively different thing from supporting Trump on the floor of the Senate in front of 330 million people. The former lets you keep "faith" with those who pre-select candidates, whereas the latter may tend to render you unelectable by people who aren't Trump supporters. I remain very interested to see how that plays out - and how much damage it does to the Republican Party.

Either way, sitting in an echo chamber with a whole lot of befuddled idiots who don't believe obvious facts that people outside the chamber accept as given is not a recipe for competent political judgement.
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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:46 am
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Quote:
The wave of backlash facing 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach former President Donald Trump has turned their 2022 primaries into tests of how long Trump, now out of office, can hold the stage in Republican politics -- and whether GOP voters are willing to turn the midterms into tests of loyalty to him.

At home, anger among Republican officials, donors and voters at those who voted to impeach Trump has erupted, with state and local officials condemning their votes and primary challengers -- benefiting from bookings on right-wing media -- launching their campaigns early. The group of 10 Republicans includes moderates in swing districts, as well as some reliable conservatives, including the No. 3-ranking House Republican, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney, and South Carolina Rep. Tom Rice.


One view of the 10.

Quote:
Whether the anger against those 10 lawmakers will survive the next year is far from clear, with congressional districts' makeup certain to shift as states complete the once-a-decade process of redrawing district lines and more than a year for the anger to dissipate and the GOP's focus to move past Trump.

"Each and every one of those 10, when they made that vote, they knew in their heads and in their hearts it was probably a political death sentence. They knew that," said former Rep. Joe Walsh,


That would suggest that there aren't going to be many more voting to convict when it comes time

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/28/politics/house-republicans-impeach-trump-backlash/index.html

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