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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
FFS, have a Bex and a good lie down. 2 different things. |
What's "Bex"? It must be a mind numbing agent.
Because, if you think these are two different issues, then obviously you must have had a Bex to numb your faculties. |
You're clearly much younger than me. A Bex Powder was a product in the 70, powdered Asprin. The advert at the time on TV was to have a Bex and a good lie down.
It became a saying when someone was over wrought. Nowdays we'd just tell someone to chill.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | Another kids on bail (for the sixth time) steals a car and crashes into another injuring a 5 year old.
If the kid was born here, lock him up, if he is a refugee, then send him back. |
agree |
Good to see parents of a child shooter in the US sentences to 10-15 years. Start to do the same here. Start holding parent responsible for recidivist kids. |
The sentence is wildly disproportionate for an act of negligence that unintentionally enabled someone else to commit murder. But then, we all know how much Americans love a scapegoat.
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/09/1243555351/crumbley-james-jennifer-ethan-parents-oxford-school-shooter-sentence
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Yeah, I read about that. It's not enough that the kid is getting life but the parents get 10 years too? One of the arguments was that the parents didn't lock the gun up, but there's no requirement in any US state that I'm aware of to lock guns away when not being used, unlike in Australia where the Gun and Ammo both have to be locked up separately.
The majority of adults in the US would own a handgun, notionally for protection. Sensible ones would be sure to make sure it was kept away from young kids, but you'd think you wouldn't need to hide it from a 15-16 year old.
Sounds very much to me like making a scapegoat out of the parents.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | Another kids on bail (for the sixth time) steals a car and crashes into another injuring a 5 year old.
If the kid was born here, lock him up, if he is a refugee, then send him back. |
agree |
Good to see parents of a child shooter in the US sentences to 10-15 years. Start to do the same here. Start holding parent responsible for recidivist kids. |
totally agree,
for those arguing the point, I remember this and the reaction of the parents. They knew he was troubled, they claimed he manipulated them into buying him a gun!! WTF! They knew it was a mistake but did it anyway. when it first happened she said she wouldn't change a thing. So comforting to the victims parents. when she got charged she changed her attitude.
The gun culture has to change for the US to stop killing itself. this is a step in the right direction.
from the article:
"Though Judge Cheryl Matthews sentenced the Crumbleys to the stiffest penalty possible, she said that the sentences were not designed to send a message to other parents or prosecutors that they should hold families responsible for children's crimes.
"These convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts, or lack of acts, that could have halted an oncoming runaway train. About repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck stand up," Matthews said.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Yeah, I read about that. It's not enough that the kid is getting life but the parents get 10 years too? One of the arguments was that the parents didn't lock the gun up, but there's no requirement in any US state that I'm aware of to lock guns away when not being used, unlike in Australia where the Gun and Ammo both have to be locked up separately.
The majority of adults in the US would own a handgun, notionally for protection. Sensible ones would be sure to make sure it was kept away from young kids, but you'd think you wouldn't need to hide it from a 15-16 year old.
Sounds very much to me like making a scapegoat out of the parents. (read up on the history of their behaviour and attitude since their son became a mass murderer, they didnt give a shit) |
you mean who yeah? because the majority of Americans do not own handguns. less than 50% of household's have a gun in them. the problem is the fanatics have an arsenal. 110 guns for every 100 adults. $£$%^%%$ crazy.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
FFS, have a Bex and a good lie down. 2 different things. |
What's "Bex"? It must be a mind numbing agent.
Because, if you think these are two different issues, then obviously you must have had a Bex to numb your faculties. |
The issues aren't too dissimilar. Recidivist youths are equivalent to Hamas. Hamas. Hamas has poked the bear once too often and is now dealing with real consequences.
Ricidivist youths have been able to get away with their behaviour as there has been no consequences for their actions. Society has had enough (the bear has been poken once to often) and now we want real consequences to accompany their actions.
_________________
Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Post subject: | |
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| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Yeah, I read about that. It's not enough that the kid is getting life but the parents get 10 years too? One of the arguments was that the parents didn't lock the gun up, but there's no requirement in any US state that I'm aware of to lock guns away when not being used, unlike in Australia where the Gun and Ammo both have to be locked up separately.
The majority of adults in the US would own a handgun, notionally for protection. Sensible ones would be sure to make sure it was kept away from young kids, but you'd think you wouldn't need to hide it from a 15-16 year old.
Sounds very much to me like making a scapegoat out of the parents. (read up on the history of their behaviour and attitude since their son became a mass murderer, they didnt give a shit) |
you mean who yeah? because the majority of Americans do not own handguns. less than 50% of household's have a gun in them. the problem is the fanatics have an arsenal. 110 guns for every 100 adults. $�$%^%%$ crazy.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/ |
OK, I missed by a few percent. I haven't read the background to the story, just the recent ones about the conviction of the parents. If what you're saying is right, I may have to revisit my opinion.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Sounds very much to me like making a scapegoat out of the parents. |
Agree with you on this one.
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Free Julian Assange!!
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| What'sinaname wrote: |
The issues aren't too dissimilar. Recidivist youths are equivalent to Hamas. Hamas. Hamas has poked the bear once too often and is now dealing with real consequences.
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Glad to see that you can make the connection between the two issues. Unfortunately, the reasons you give are upside down - as usual -, but it least you see the connection.
Recidivist youth, who are always youth from backgrounds of extreme social deprivation, are part of oppressed sections of the working class. Likewise, the population in Gaza is oppressed, and murderously so, by the Israeli regime working as a proxy for US imperialism.
Capitalist governments have, in the fundamental analysis, the same perspective for all sections of the working class. Oppression, incarceration, social destitution and - ultimately - annihilation (as we see being played out in Gaza right now).
As an example, it is common knowledge that the Israeli regime tests out lethal weaponry on behalf of the US on the Palestinian population. Once tested, and proven a "success", it is then transferred to the US for use by the US police against the oppressed sections of the US working class.
At all times, the common ideology utilised by capitalist governments is that the victims of oppression are to be blamed. So for example, supposedly Hamas is to blame, not the murderous oppression of the Israeli state for the last 70 years. Recidivist youth are to be blamed, Aboriginal kids in Alice Springs are to be blamed, not the policies of successive governments, Federal and state, which over decades have been cutting back on social spending on education, health, mental services, denying the paltry, poverty level welfare payments to single parents after their children turn 16, paying poverty level Newstart payments impossible for families to survive on....the list goes on. So when these kids, of parents under immense financial, social stress and cutltural deprivation, "screw up", of course the government wants you to blame them and agree that they should be incarcerated....and who knows what next? Allowed to die in youth penitentary cells....have several have in the last few years....
Anyway, I am glad that you saw the connection.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins
Last edited by Magpietothemax on Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| think positive wrote: |
for those arguing the point, I remember this and the reaction of the parents. They knew he was troubled, they claimed he manipulated them into buying him a gun!! WTF! They knew it was a mistake but did it anyway. when it first happened she said she wouldn't change a thing. So comforting to the victims parents. when she got charged she changed her attitude.
The gun culture has to change for the US to stop killing itself. this is a step in the right direction.
from the article:
"Though Judge Cheryl Matthews sentenced the Crumbleys to the stiffest penalty possible, she said that the sentences were not designed to send a message to other parents or prosecutors that they should hold families responsible for children's crimes.
"These convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts, or lack of acts, that could have halted an oncoming runaway train. About repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck stand up," Matthews said. |
I agree that the parents were negligent, making some grossly irresponsible decisions and bear moral culpability for the deaths of the young people their son killed.
However, this decision is not about justice for the families involved. It is about deflecting attention away from the true reasons for so many mass shootings in the US. The mass shootings in the US are not simply the product of easy access to guns. They are caused by the very crisis at the heart of US society. Extreme social inequality, celebration of militarism, extreme individualism, extreme right wing politics, racism, untreated mental disorders are the source of mass shootings. These conditions are produced by the policies and propaganda of governments, and their accomplices in the media. By scapegoating these two parents, the authorities are seeking to deflect attention from their own fundamental role in creating the conditions for the proliferation of mass shootings in the US. This case creates a dangerous legal precedent as well. From now on, whenever children are involved in perpetrating crimes of violence, the spotlight will be on the parents - immediately taking the focus away from those truly responsible for creating the social crisis leading to these tragic events. And where does it stop? Parents will now be charged for a multitude of crimes that their children commit from now on. According to one US defence attorney: "It is frightening to imagine where this precedent will lead".
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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^ It seems your deflecting by making the problem the responsibility of everyone else but the individual.
It's time people take responsibility for their actions - not blame social inequality, racism, left wing politics, and mental disorders. These are all excuses.
Individuals, including parents, need to be held accountable. Actions have consequences. It's time for people to be taught that again.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
You're both right, to a degree.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Post subject: | |
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | think positive wrote: |
for those arguing the point, I remember this and the reaction of the parents. They knew he was troubled, they claimed he manipulated them into buying him a gun!! WTF! They knew it was a mistake but did it anyway. when it first happened she said she wouldn't change a thing. So comforting to the victims parents. when she got charged she changed her attitude.
The gun culture has to change for the US to stop killing itself. this is a step in the right direction.
from the article:
"Though Judge Cheryl Matthews sentenced the Crumbleys to the stiffest penalty possible, she said that the sentences were not designed to send a message to other parents or prosecutors that they should hold families responsible for children's crimes.
"These convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts, or lack of acts, that could have halted an oncoming runaway train. About repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck stand up," Matthews said. |
I agree that the parents were negligent, making some grossly irresponsible decisions and bear moral culpability for the deaths of the young people their son killed.
However, this decision is not about justice for the families involved. It is about deflecting attention away from the true reasons for so many mass shootings in the US. The mass shootings in the US are not simply the product of easy access to guns. They are caused by the very crisis at the heart of US society. Extreme social inequality, celebration of militarism, extreme individualism, extreme right wing politics, racism, untreated mental disorders are the source of mass shootings. These conditions are produced by the policies and propaganda of governments, and their accomplices in the media. By scapegoating these two parents, the authorities are seeking to deflect attention from their own fundamental role in creating the conditions for the proliferation of mass shootings in the US. This case creates a dangerous legal precedent as well. From now on, whenever children are involved in perpetrating crimes of violence, the spotlight will be on the parents - immediately taking the focus away from those truly responsible for creating the social crisis leading to these tragic events. And where does it stop? Parents will now be charged for a multitude of crimes that their children commit from now on. According to one US defence attorney: "It is frightening to imagine where this precedent will lead". |
they were not scapegoats though.
They knew their son was unhinged, yet he could still convince them to buy him a gun. They ignored many many warning signs before he committed mass murder. and afterwards they said they did nothing wrong and given their time again, they would do nothing differently.
it wasnt until they were charged that they changed their tune.
Yes there are huge huge problems in the states, in all the categories you mention. and yet the VAST MAJORITY of students get through school without shooting their fellow students.
And i would be more than happy if the parents of the little 13 year old £$%$ers currently stealing cars, breaking and entering, and beating up or stabbing innocent people in their own homes around our state right now, were held responsible in some way for their brat kids behaviour.
I knew where my 13 years olds were every single night. (no they didnt, because I did, so I knew what to look for!!)
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| What'sinaname wrote: | ^ It seems your deflecting by making the problem the responsibility of everyone else but the individual.
It's time people take responsibility for their actions - not blame social inequality, racism, left wing politics, and mental disorders. These are all excuses.
Individuals, including parents, need to be held accountable. Actions have consequences. It's time for people to be taught that again. |
It seems that you are deflecting, by making everything the problem the responsibilty of no one else but the individaul
It is time for people to hold governments to account for their actions and policies
War criminals, servants of corporate interests, need to be held accountable.
Actions have consequences. It's time for capitalist politicians to meet their reckoning.
It seems that you are deflecting, by making everything the responsibility of the individual, rather than that of the capitalist politicians and the gigantic corporate interests that they serve.
_________________
Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: |
The issues aren't too dissimilar. Recidivist youths are equivalent to Hamas. Hamas. Hamas has poked the bear once too often and is now dealing with real consequences.
|
Glad to see that you can make the connection between the two issues. Unfortunately, the reasons you give are upside down - as usual -, but it least you see the connection.
Recidivist youth, who are always youth from backgrounds of extreme social deprivation, are part of oppressed sections of the working class. Likewise, the population in Gaza is oppressed, and murderously so, by the Israeli regime working as a proxy for US imperialism.
Capitalist governments have, in the fundamental analysis, the same perspective for all sections of the working class. Oppression, incarceration, social destitution and - ultimately - annihilation (as we see being played out in Gaza right now).
As an example, it is common knowledge that the Israeli regime tests out lethal weaponry on behalf of the US on the Palestinian population. Once tested, and proven a "success", it is then transferred to the US for use by the US police against the oppressed sections of the US working class.
At all times, the common ideology utilised by capitalist governments is that the victims of oppression are to be blamed. So for example, supposedly Hamas is to blame, not the murderous oppression of the Israeli state for the last 70 years. Recidivist youth are to be blamed, Aboriginal kids in Alice Springs are to be blamed, not the policies of successive governments, Federal and state, which over decades have been cutting back on social spending on education, health, mental services, denying the paltry, poverty level welfare payments to single parents after their children turn 16, paying poverty level Newstart payments impossible for families to survive on....the list goes on. So when these kids, of parents under immense financial, social stress and cutltural deprivation, "screw up", of course the government wants you to blame them and agree that they should be incarcerated....and who knows what next? Allowed to die in youth penitentary cells....have several have in the last few years....
Anyway, I am glad that you saw the connection. |
Maybe they shouldn't screw up to begin with? Then we'd have no one to blame.
It's not hard. If it's not yours, don't steal it.
In terms of punishment, people have a right to be safe in their homes and their community. If people threaten that (which these recidivists do), they need to be removed from society. If they die in cells, so be it......it's no loss to society, and in fact, society is better off.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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