Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
2021 Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: in a time zone

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 8:01 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharing this post by a Facebook friend, which I think points out some of the asymmetries of this conflict (and some of the skewed perceptions that filter down, as seen in this very thread).

Quote:
We’re going to hear a lot about the Israeli military blowing up civilian buildings in Gaza, and as usual, we’ll hear incessantly that they had it coming, because “Hamas was in that building.” Any such claim by the Israeli state or military should be viewed as suspect and self-serving. But even if it’s true, the bigger question is: So what? Hamas is a political party, a civil administration, a religious movement, educational system, medical provider, charity—in addition to a (very shabby and mickey-mouse) militia. The presence of Hamas doesn’t detract from their civilian status.

Here’s the thing—every Palestinian, including so-called “militants,” are civilians. Israel does not recognize Palestinian militants as combatants, with POW status upon capture, but rather as domestic criminals, prosecuted for terrorism or murder. You don’t prosecute enemy combatants in a war, except when it comes to war crimes: the waging of war by combatants, in itself, is lawful. And you can’t have it both ways: they are either combatants or they are civilians. (Israel won’t confer on Palestinians the status of combatancy, because to do so would imply the recognition of Palestine as a sovereign entity.) The international laws of armed conflict only recognize civilians as lawful targets in one narrowly defined instance: when they “directly participate in hostilities.” But they remain civilians, even so, and there is a higher threshold to justify targeting them, and stricter regulations that govern it, as compared to the targeting of regular combatants.

Actual combatants can be targeted just about any place and any time. They can be targeted off-duty and out of uniform. They can even be targeted while they sleep. It bears mentioning that, with the exception of ultra-Orthodox Jews and the Palestinian minority in Israel, nearly every Israeli citizen between the ages of 18 and 21 is, by law, a combatant. What’s more, the Israeli military is thoroughly integrated into nearly every aspect of Israeli governance, infrastructure and economic life. According to the Israeli military and high court of justice, “civilian settlers” are serving a vital military function. So the idea that every case of Palestinian belligerency is an “act of terror” against hapless Israeli civilians, while every case of Israeli belligerency is a proper “military objective,” is not just hypocritical, it’s entirely backward. Israel is the last country that should be arguing for relaxed rules of engagement. And we should hold them to their own standards.

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:23 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Sharing this post by a Facebook friend, which I think points out some of the asymmetries of this conflict (and some of the skewed perceptions that filter down, as seen in this very thread).

Quote:
We’re going to hear a lot about the Israeli military blowing up civilian buildings in Gaza, and as usual, we’ll hear incessantly that they had it coming, because “Hamas was in that building.” Any such claim by the Israeli state or military should be viewed as suspect and self-serving. But even if it’s true, the bigger question is: So what? Hamas is a political party, a civil administration, a religious movement, educational system, medical provider, charity—in addition to a (very shabby and mickey-mouse) militia. The presence of Hamas doesn’t detract from their civilian status.

Here’s the thing—every Palestinian, including so-called “militants,” are civilians. Israel does not recognize Palestinian militants as combatants, with POW status upon capture, but rather as domestic criminals, prosecuted for terrorism or murder. You don’t prosecute enemy combatants in a war, except when it comes to war crimes: the waging of war by combatants, in itself, is lawful. And you can’t have it both ways: they are either combatants or they are civilians. (Israel won’t confer on Palestinians the status of combatancy, because to do so would imply the recognition of Palestine as a sovereign entity.) The international laws of armed conflict only recognize civilians as lawful targets in one narrowly defined instance: when they “directly participate in hostilities.” But they remain civilians, even so, and there is a higher threshold to justify targeting them, and stricter regulations that govern it, as compared to the targeting of regular combatants.

Actual combatants can be targeted just about any place and any time. They can be targeted off-duty and out of uniform. They can even be targeted while they sleep. It bears mentioning that, with the exception of ultra-Orthodox Jews and the Palestinian minority in Israel, nearly every Israeli citizen between the ages of 18 and 21 is, by law, a combatant. What’s more, the Israeli military is thoroughly integrated into nearly every aspect of Israeli governance, infrastructure and economic life. According to the Israeli military and high court of justice, “civilian settlers” are serving a vital military function. So the idea that every case of Palestinian belligerency is an “act of terror” against hapless Israeli civilians, while every case of Israeli belligerency is a proper “military objective,” is not just hypocritical, it’s entirely backward. Israel is the last country that should be arguing for relaxed rules of engagement. And we should hold them to their own standards.


Your friend has the luxury of being an armchair critic. Naive and lumping a lot together that reminds me of first year uni arguments.

The oh so simplistic binary way of looking at it is self serving. At the same time I want the West Bank settlers out, all of them however I also want the poetry reading, group hugging Flower arranging Hamas militia to be disarmed ASAP. That is such a self serving Facebook post I’m surprised David ur not embarrassed posting it in a wider forum. Still, each to their own.

_________________
“It was never about the money” Israel Folau
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: in a time zone

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:26 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Serious question: if Hamas is to be disarmed, how do you think Palestinians in Gaza should defend themselves against Israeli violence? Should they have a regular army, or what?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:47 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David I expect that you will shortly be lambasted by Pietillidie for reposting something from Facebook.

I agree with WPT’s comments in relation to that post. They’re just words, in the real world those words are meaningless. Israel will do what it wants to do. Words on Facebook do not concern it.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: in a time zone

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:35 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

^ How about the unyielding and basically unconditional financial support of Western countries like our own, and the impunity that comes with it? It’s not like the global community has no say in these things. The settlements would stop tomorrow if the US and its allies withdrew their support and started placing sanctions on the country.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:44 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Serious question: if Hamas is to be disarmed, how do you think Palestinians in Gaza should defend themselves against Israeli violence? Should they have a regular army, or what?


I want all the settlers removed and disarmed: end of story. Iran is guiding Hamas and funding Hamas. This is an existential question for Israel is not an existential question for Arabs including Palestinians. Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians. Some even vote for Netanyahu.

_________________
“It was never about the money” Israel Folau
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Escaping Danistan

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:29 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

IDF view on why they blew up the media building.

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1393797067273867266

_________________
If a wombat listens to or reads an "expert"opinion, should I trust the wombat to understand what they heard or read?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:05 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
^ How about the unyielding and basically unconditional financial support of Western countries like our own, and the impunity that comes with it? It’s not like the global community has no say in these things. The settlements would stop tomorrow if the US and its allies withdrew their support and started placing sanctions on the country.


Western countries could do that. But they don’t. Because they don’t want to.

As for a building which houses some media outlets being destroyed because Hamas also has space there, it appears that Al Jazeera never broadxast Cool Hand Luke in Gaza.

https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
stui magpie Gemini

Oh, the Premiership's a cakewalk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Escaping Danistan

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:51 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Great quote, I like it better in this context. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMwMJZZtkt8
_________________
If a wombat listens to or reads an "expert"opinion, should I trust the wombat to understand what they heard or read?
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:22 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to link to the Gunners song at first but thought it would be a bit obtuse without a long explanation!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: in a time zone

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:27 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:
Serious question: if Hamas is to be disarmed, how do you think Palestinians in Gaza should defend themselves against Israeli violence? Should they have a regular army, or what?


I want all the settlers removed and disarmed: end of story. Iran is guiding Hamas and funding Hamas. This is an existential question for Israel is not an existential question for Arabs including Palestinians. Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians. Some even vote for Netanyahu.


I appreciate that’s what you want, but it’s sadly very far from happening any time soon. The Western world keeps backing this two-state solution, but there’s simply no realistic prospect of that until policy changes radically. There’s more chance of America banning guns. Forget about it.

Anyway, realpolitik – which is the approach 5 from the Wing and others in this thread seem to favour – cuts both ways: the inevitable result of all this is that Hamas, with widespread support from the Palestinian public, sticks around indefinitely. Israel had their chance to deal with the relative moderates of Fatah and blew it (it looks like the West Bank, too, might soon fall to Hamas). And even if Netanyahu and his successors continue to conduct massacres every few years and maintain all aspects of their brutal Apartheid system, ordinary Israeli citizens will never, ever be rid of this curse for as long as anyone currently there is alive.

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:42 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

5 from the wing on debut wrote:
David I expect that you will shortly be lambasted by Pietillidie for reposting something from Facebook.

The crime here starts with even having a friend that uses Facebook!

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:49 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Serious question: if Hamas is to be disarmed, how do you think Palestinians in Gaza should defend themselves against Israeli violence? Should they have a regular army, or what?

It's locked in by all parties involved to be as it is. I think this is what your Facebook friend would call 'overdetermined'.

That question you ask is really the only one that needs to be posed. Basically, you solve the whole and satisfy the POV of each, or you accept status quo. The rest is din made up of people special pleading the superiority or inferiority of one or another group.

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

Speak about destruction


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: in a time zone

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:38 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

In further, eyebrow-raising news, that post I shared at the top of the page got taken down by Facebook for "supporting terrorism". Shocked

Those who wanted the social media companies to step in more to crack down on "extremism" and "misinformation" in the wake of Trump’s election win certainly have a lot to answer for...

_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
5 from the wing on debut 



Joined: 27 May 2016


PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:02 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't want to be sharing office space with the Nicks corporate headquarters when the Israelis find out what is occurring on this forum!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 10 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group