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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
The odds of the remaining hostages still being alive is slim to none and Israel knows it. The most likely outcome is that they were killed by Israeli bombs, some would have been murdered by Hamas once they were no longer useful.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax 
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| slangman wrote: | Six months and 43 pages in and hardly any mention of the hostages taken on October 7th and demands for their release in the VPT.
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The Israeli government killed its own civilians under the Hannibal directive. A sizable proportion of the deaths on October 7 occurred from the "friendly fire" of the IDF.
The Israeli government could not care less about the lives of the hostages, nor of the 1200 deaths that occurred on October 7.
There is proof that the Israeli government knew an attack was imminent from Hamas and allowed it to happen becuase it would then have an excuse to carry out its own "final solution" for the Palestinian population in Gaza.
I am very happy that there has not been a call on VPT for the release of the hostages, because that is merely the propaganda that the Israeli government is using as a pretext for continuing its genocide.
Very few wish to be associated with the propaganda of a fascist regime, because that is what the Israeli government is.
Israel and the US have long seen the Palestinian population as a barrier to their interests in the Middle East. Now they have both reached the stage where they believe that they can openly carry out the genocide that they have dreamed of and planned for a long time. Currently, they are using starvation as the main weapon. To claim that all this is being carried out just to get 100 or so hostages back is absurd, and simply the excuse used by Netahanyu and his accomplices, including Joe Biden, for mass murder.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| slangman wrote: | Six months and 43 pages in and hardly any mention of the hostages taken on October 7th and demands for their release in the VPT.
Until all of the hostages are released there will be no ceasefire and the bombing of Gaza will continue. I’m not sure which part of that many of you don’t understand.
Hamas, the elected party of Gaza has used the financial aid provided by the rest of the world to wage a war against Israel instead of using that money to build the infrastructure to enhance the wellbeing of its population.
As one commenter put it, “they built down instead of up”.
This is all on Hamas and the path that they chose to take. |
Have a crack at re-writing that sincerly and effortfully, paying attention to the full set of facts, whether be decades of dire deprivation people were born into, the fact that Hamas was elected exactly once in 2006, or the fact that Nutteryahu and his cronies fully supported and allowed Hamas to be funded, overtly stating it was to his political benefit in order to wedge against a two-state solution. The Israeli far-right and Hamas are dependents in a mutually parasitic two-step.
Absolutely everyone wants the hostages returned, while many of the people whose family members are still (hopefully) being held hostage oppose Netanyahu and blame him for putting his own fantasy self-image ahead of the plight of hostages, and distracting and dividing Israel's otherwise heavily funded and famed military such that they made a very basic misstep. The security failure would be the stuff of memes and satire if no one was killed.
And have you thought through what you're demanding of barely subsisting peasants under extreme duress trapped in a cesspit of bad information under external force from Iran? Do you honestly think peasants who have barely subsisted for decades, now under fire while tending to little Johnny's amputated limb and grandma's festering gangrenous foot, with no home to return to and no timeline for any resolution, in a panic that they might be shot by the IDF or knifed by Hamas, wondering if they can reach a sporadic food drop or if antibiotics will arrive next week, are able to tee up a quick meeting with Iran to have Hamas return the hostages next week?
Because desperate people in absolute chaos can't work a quick global political solution doesn't mean it's fine to virtually ethnically cleanse them. You'd think that would be very obvious, regardless of Israelis being at the end of their tether.
And you are aware that unbridled overreaction, led by narcissists and con men leads to highly costly failures like Afghanistan and Iraq, right? Iraq alone cost a trillion dollars, trashed American prestige and paved the way for Trump's chaos - even as it killed hundreds of thousands of people, created millions of refugees and triggered a region hellscape that has gone on and on since.
So, no one has time to engage silly meme-like quips, which are merely words on a page from someone typing because they can, not because they know anything or have a deep appreciation of the whole and its complexities. You're right to bring Israeli anger and exhuastion to the problem; but then what? Nutteryahu has been in and around Israeli leadership for two decades, not five minutes, and this will take a decadal, painstaking fix that assumes everyone is equally of the same human value.
Over to you.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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^ Good post. It is very important to bring out in this regard the fact that the rise of Hamas, and its victory in an election, is the result of decades of oppression and economic blockade imposed by Israel.
Wikileaks released cables in 2008 which revealed that the Israeli government's policy was to keep the economy of Gaza "on the brink of collapse".
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/
Israel had conducted precise calculations on the minimum number of calories to avoid malnutrition in Gaza Strip to allocate how many trucks would be allowed. This speaks volumes to the premeditated use of starvation as a potential weapon in their policy to rid the strip of all Gazans.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza
In 2008 they did not feel "brave enough" to carry out open genocide by starvation. Now they do.
In other words, they have been plotting a possible policy of mass starvation in Gaza since 2008.
Finally, as you point out, the cynicism of the Israeli government is criminal in extreme, when one realises that they funded Hamas as a means to prevent the so-called "two state solution" to gain any credibility (which it never actually had, but the isreaeli government wanted to make sure).
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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There’s no question that the greatest threat to the lives of the Israeli hostages is the continuation of this war, and that their biggest hope is a ceasefire (one of the conditions of which will likely involve another prisoner exchange of the many Palestinians, including journalists and activists, who have been locked up in Israeli prisons for years without due process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel). The families of the hostages have been saying this for months to anyone who will listen, but Netanyahu and his government obviously couldn’t care less about their loved ones or else he would have pursued a totally different approach from the beginning.
I looked it up, and so far, in a near-six-month operation, the IDF have rescued just three hostages. Israeli forces have already killed the same number of hostages in the notorious white flag incident, and undoubtedly killed dozens more through bombing. (Link is broken, you’ll have to copy and paste: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war_hostage_crisis )
I don’t support innocent civilians’ lives being used as pawns in war. But even if the Israeli propagandists were telling the truth and this war was solely about freeing the hostages, what on earth is the calculus that justifies killing 32,000 people and counting to save 100 or so? How many Palestinian civilians are worth the life of one Israeli?
At least the far-right MPs in Netanyahu’s coalition are being honest about how they think when they call Palestinians animals. There are evidently a great many more people out there who think exactly the same way but who instead use tortured justifications to dance around it. Otherwise, if they genuinely cared so much about people being unjustly held as captives, perhaps the conditions of life in the entire Gaza Strip before October 7 might have been of some concern to them.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | I don’t support innocent civilians’ lives being used as pawns in war. But even if the Israeli propagandists were telling the truth and this war was solely about freeing the hostages, what on earth is the calculus that justifies killing 32,000 people and counting to save 100 or so? How many Palestinian civilians are worth the life of one Israeli? |
The greatest good for the fewest people? Or the malignant narcissist's ethic, the greatest good for just me?
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Kill aid workers, ah sorry but it's War. Potato Head, "It's Hamas Fault". Nearly 200 aid workers are reportedly dead in Operation Genocide. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| Culprit wrote: | | Kill aid workers, ah sorry but it's War. Potato Head, "It's Hamas Fault". Nearly 200 aid workers are reportedly dead in Operation Genocide. |
It's not good, but can I ask
If you're in a convoy of 3 and one car gets hit. It's a bit thick for the survivors of the blown up car to get out and get into another car.
When the second car in a convoy is hit, it's Darwin Award worthy to get out of that car and into the last remaining car.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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1 Australian aid worker gets killed, people suddenly care what's going on.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | Kill aid workers, ah sorry but it's War. Potato Head, "It's Hamas Fault". Nearly 200 aid workers are reportedly dead in Operation Genocide. |
It's not good, but can I ask
If you're in a convoy of 3 and one car gets hit. It's a bit thick for the survivors of the blown up car to get out and get into another car.
When the second car in a convoy is hit, it's Darwin Award worthy to get out of that car and into the last remaining car. |
This is literally nuts. You're blaming the aid workers for their own murder by the genocidal maniacs in the IDF?
you don't seem to understand - or refuse to acknowledge an overall reality -in which Israel is using starvation as a weapon of war to kill potentially hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, and therefore, murdering aid workers is a key component of this strategy, since it intimidates any other aid agencies from attempting to get food into Gaza
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 1 Australian aid worker gets killed, people suddenly care what's going on. |
What do you mean that people "suddenly care" ?
In case you missed it, for the last 25 weeks there have been mass demonstrations, in Australia and across the world, demanding an end to the genocide in Gaza.
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Free Julian Assange!!
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 1 Australian aid worker gets killed, people suddenly care what's going on. |
Israel doesn't and in saying that, that is nothing new as that's how they roll. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Culprit wrote: | | Kill aid workers, ah sorry but it's War. Potato Head, "It's Hamas Fault". Nearly 200 aid workers are reportedly dead in Operation Genocide. |
Did he really say that? If so, that's ridiculous – even Netanyahu is eating humble pie over this, and that's a rare phenomenon.
People show their true colours when they point the finger at victims, or at other actors, rather than those who are actually responsible. I can't even fathom the post above accusing these aid workers, who I dare say were much braver and more selfless than anyone on this forum could ever imagine being, of stupidity for their own deaths in the line of duty, as if anyone here would know how to react in the moment of being unexpectedly targeted by artillery in a war zone.
Military stuff-ups happen, but I think it's telling that incidents like this – see also the shooting of the three escaped Israeli hostages waving a white flag – end up being so grotesque on so many levels. Hitting one car might be a terrible (if still inexcusable) error; hitting three in sequence, in the process killing those attempting to help the wounded from the earlier blasts, is on another level entirely. Heaven help actual Palestinian civilians when aid workers and Israeli hostages are treated like this.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| Magpietothemax wrote: | | slangman wrote: | Six months and 43 pages in and hardly any mention of the hostages taken on October 7th and demands for their release in the VPT.
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The Israeli government killed its own civilians under the Hannibal directive. A sizable proportion of the deaths on October 7 occurred from the "friendly fire" of the IDF.
The Israeli government could not care less about the lives of the hostages, nor of the 1200 deaths that occurred on October 7.
There is proof that the Israeli government knew an attack was imminent from Hamas and allowed it to happen becuase it would then have an excuse to carry out its own "final solution" for the Palestinian population in Gaza.
I am very happy that there has not been a call on VPT for the release of the hostages, because that is merely the propaganda that the Israeli government is using as a pretext for continuing its genocide.
Very few wish to be associated with the propaganda of a fascist regime, because that is what the Israeli government is.
Israel and the US have long seen the Palestinian population as a barrier to their interests in the Middle East. Now they have both reached the stage where they believe that they can openly carry out the genocide that they have dreamed of and planned for a long time. Currently, they are using starvation as the main weapon. To claim that all this is being carried out just to get 100 or so hostages back is absurd, and simply the excuse used by Netahanyu and his accomplices, including Joe Biden, for mass murder. |
You are blinded by your own ideology so your response was as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.
What does surprise me though is that of all of the blame that you attribute to Israel you haven’t yet accused them of posing as the Hamas terrorists and committing the atrocities on October 7th. It would not surprise me if you held that view privately as you have blamed them for virtually everything else in relation to this conflict.
Anyhow, good to see Hamas use the foreign aid money (UN agencies spent nearly $4.5 billon 2014-2020) on waging war against Israel instead of building infrastructure to make better the lives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
Israel isn’t innocent by any means, but to solely put the blame on them is eerily reminiscent of events 100 years ago.
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
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| slangman wrote: |
What does surprise me though is that of all of the blame that you attribute to Israel you haven’t yet accused them of posing as the Hamas terrorists and committing the atrocities on October 7th. It would not surprise me if you held that view privately as you have blamed them for virtually everything else in relation to this conflict.
Anyhow, good to see Hamas use the foreign aid money (UN agencies spent nearly $4.5 billon 2014-2020) on waging war against Israel instead of building infrastructure to make better the lives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
Israel isn’t innocent by any means, but to solely put the blame on them is eerily reminiscent of events 100 years ago. |
The reason that I have not blamed the IDF for posing as Hamas is because there is no evidence for this. For everything else I have said, there is ample evidence on the public record.
Your view of reality is upside down. From 2014 to 2020, it was Israel who waged war on the population of Gaza. I am not going to bother right now to go back over the historical record and document here how many actions of mass murder, and military incursions, the IDF carried out in that period. It is all public knowledge.
Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, (thanks to the "foreign aid money" it is receiving from the US) and the Israeli government is entirely responsible, along with all the Western pro-Zionist governments (including Australia's), and above all, the Biden administration.
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Free Julian Assange!!
Ice in the veins |
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