Djokovic (24) - Nadal (22) - Federer (20)

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Jezza
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Djokovic (24) - Nadal (22) - Federer (20)

Post by Jezza »

Legend!

I can't see anyone ever reaching a record of winning 10 grand slams in one single tournament for a long time yet.

Can he catch Roger's record of 18 slams?
Last edited by Jezza on Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:44 am, edited 19 times in total.
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Post by Bucks5 »

It is unlikely Rafa will catch Roger given his age and the toll on his body his style of tennis has.

Imagine his record if two of the grand slams were on clay instead of hard court?
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Post by K »

As of today, the following plot needs updating... but the thread title is more out of date, and I guess we can all just imagine the one extra red dot required.

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Post by Presti35 »

We've seen two of the best in Roger and Rafa. Imagine what either would have achieved if the other wasn't around.
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Post by K »

I think a great player's status is enhanced by --- or even requires --- a great rivalry. Sampras had no great rivals. (AA's record against him was abysmal. It was like giving him free titles.) Sure, a great rival would have trimmed his list of titles a bit, but he would have gained so much more in other ways.
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Post by Jezza »

Agassi's record against Sampras was hardly abysmal. Sampras' record against Agassi is 20-14 on all surfaces and competitions and in Grand Slam finals, it was 4-1 in Sampras' favour and 6-3 in all Grand Slam matches. Federer's head to head record against Nadal is arguably worse with Nadal leading the tally 23-15.

These were Sampras' main rivals:

Andre Agassi h2h 20-14 highest ranking #1
Boris Becker h2h 12-7 highest ranking #1
Stefan Edberg h2h 8-5 highest ranking #1
Jim Courier h2h 16-4 highest ranking #1
Patrick Rafter h2h 12-4 highest ranking #1
Yevgeny Kalelnikov h2h 11-2 highest ranking #1
Thomas Muster h2h 9-2 highest ranking #1
Michael Chang h2h 12-8 highest ranking #2
Richard Krajicek h2h 4-6 highest ranking #4
Goran Ivanisevic H2h 12-7 highest ranking #2
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Post by K »

The 6-3 (PS-AA) record is eerily close to the 23-15 of RN-RF. (I only care about Grand Slams. What is the Rafa-Roger record in Slams?) This is why Rafa has long been regarded as Roger's Kryptonite and why arguments about Roger's alleged greatness are complicated. More on that in a later post.

The 4-1 (PS-AA) record in Slam finals has a one only because just reaching that final in Melbourne made Sampras a physical and emotional wreck. Against Courier, he was visibly sobbing during the match, after which it was discovered that someone in the crowd had called out to him to "do it for your coach", who was terminally ill. The scorelines of the four were one-sided; AA never looked like winning them. I'd be interested to know the details of the four non-final matches. (e.g. were they early or late in their careers?)

On clay, Sampras had feet of clay, so if I were able to choose a surface to try to help AA, it would be clay. That Sampras never got remotely close to winning a French Open, along with his lack of a great rival (in my opinion), counts a lot against him in discussions of the absolute greatest players.

The list of head-to-head records is conspicuously lacking in rivals. The only one who could be considered great and roughly of the same generation as Sampras is the aforementioned AA. (e.g. Edberg was much older.)


Update:

The 3 AA Grand Slam victories over PS:
2000 Australian SF 64 36 670 765 61
1995 Australian F 46 61 766 64
1992 French QF 766 62 61

(The '95 circumstances I mentioned above.)
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Post by Jezza »

Nadal and Federer's head to head record in slams is 9-3 in Nadal's favour.
- 1). French Open 2005 (Semi Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 2). French Open 2006 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 3). Wimbledon 2006 (Final) = Federer (4 sets)
- 4). French Open 2007 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 5). Wimbledon 2007 (Final) = Federer (5 sets)
- 6). French Open 2008 (Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 7). Wimbledon 2008 (Final) = Nadal (5 sets)
- 8]. Australian Open 2009 (Final) = Nadal (5 sets)
- 9). French Open 2011 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 10). Australian Open 2012 (Semi Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 11). Australian Open 2014 (Semi Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 12). Australian Open 2017 (Final) = Federer (5 sets)

Hard to disagree with you on the Sampras-Agassi rivalry after your elaboration of it. Sampras' peak was 1993-1997, but he was ultra consistent from 1990 to 2000 and Agassi played his best tennis from 1993-1995 and 2000-2002. I always regard 1996-1998 as wasted years for Agassi when he was 26 to 28 years of age and should have been peaking.

Sampras was an outstanding player on grass and very consistent on hard courts. Agassi was a better clay court player than Sampras. Sampras holds most records over him, but Agassi does have the benefit of achieving the career Grand Slam, which is something that Sampras was unable to achieve. I always wonder whether Sampras could have played a few more years, considering he was only 31 when he retired and Agassi played until he was 35.

I think Nadal has had the hardest run. His career kickstarted when Federer was peaking (2004-2007 - Federer won 11 slams out of 16 in that period). Then as Nadal was peaking around 2010/2011, Djokovic started to emerge as a multiple grand slam winner. I think out of the big three, Federer had it the easiest in terms of any real challengers especially in the mid-2000s when Nadal and Djokovic were only teenagers. Federer's biggest rivals during his peak were Roddick, Safin (could seriously play, but was inconsistent and injury-ridden), Hewitt and Nadal (when he was only 18/19).

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion. Tennis is one of my favourite sports outside of footy, so to see another Nickster have knowledge about it is refreshing.
Last edited by Jezza on Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by K »

Errata:

Jezza, if the 9-3 tally is right, your list must be missing a few.

I'm wondering about the number of red dots in the chart, too. I'm not seeing enough dots for Rafa, if that chart is supposed to be up to the start of 2018.
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Post by Jezza »

It was an error on my behalf, K. I forgot to add three grand slam matches in my post so I've edited it accordingly.
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Post by Jezza »

Djokovic defeats Del Potro in the US Open Final, taking him to 14 slams in total, which is equal to Pete Sampras' GS record.

We're arguably witnessing the three greatest players in the same era.
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Post by K »

Yes, maybe now's a good time for an appraisal (now that they've all had a second winning phase). Djokovic's head-to-head record against R & R is always raised in his support, but once again I care only about the Grand Slam head-to-head record...
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Post by Jezza »

Grand Slam Head to Head Records:

Nadal 9-3 Federer
- 1). French Open 2005 (Semi Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 2). French Open 2006 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 3). Wimbledon 2006 (Final) = Federer (4 sets)
- 4). French Open 2007 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 5). Wimbledon 2007 (Final) = Federer (5 sets)
- 6). French Open 2008 (Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 7). Wimbledon 2008 (Final) = Nadal (5 sets)
- 8]. Australian Open 2009 (Final) = Nadal (5 sets)
- 9). French Open 2011 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 10). Australian Open 2012 (Semi Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 11). Australian Open 2014 (Semi Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 12). Australian Open 2017 (Final) = Federer (5 sets)

AUSTRALIAN OPEN = Nadal 3-1 Federer
FRENCH OPEN = Nadal 5-0 Federer
WIMBLEDON = Nadal 1-2 Federer
US OPEN = Nadal 0-0 Federer

Nadal 9-5 Djokovic
- 1). French Open 2006 (Quarter Final) = Nadal (2 sets up) - Djokovic retired early from injury
- 2). French Open 2007 (Semi Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 3). Wimbledon 2007 (Semi Final) = Nadal (2 sets up) - Djokovic retired early from injury
- 4). French Open 2008 (Semi Final) = Nadal (3 sets)
- 5). US Open 2010 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 6). Wimbledon 2011 (Final) = Djokovic (4 sets)
- 7). US Open 2011 (Final) = Djokovic (4 sets)
- 8]. Australian Open 2012 (Final) = Djokovic (5 sets)
- 9). French Open 2012 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 10). French Open 2013 (Semi Final) = Nadal (5 sets)
- 11). US Open 2013 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 12). French Open 2014 (Final) = Nadal (4 sets)
- 13). French Open 2015 (Quarter Final) = Djokovic (3 sets)
- 14). Wimbledon 2018 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (5 sets)

AUSTRALIAN OPEN = Nadal 0-1 Djokovic
FRENCH OPEN = Nadal 6-1 Djokovic
WIMBLEDON = Nadal 1-2 Djokovic
US OPEN = Nadal 2-1 Djokovic

Djokovic 9-6 Federer
- 1). Australian Open 2007 (4th Round) = Federer (3 sets)
- 2). US Open 2007 (Final) = Federer (3 sets)
- 3). Australian Open 2008 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (3 sets)
- 4). US Open 2008 (Semi Final) = Federer (4 sets)
- 5). US Open 2009 (Semi Final) = Federer (3 sets)
- 6). US Open 2010 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (5 sets)
- 7). Australian Open 2011 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (3 sets)
- 8]. French Open 2011 (Semi Final) = Federer (4 sets)
- 9). US Open 2011 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (5 sets)
- 10). French Open 2012 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (3 sets)
- 11). Wimbledon 2012 (Semi Final) = Federer (4 sets)
- 12). Wimbledon 2014 (Final) = Djokovic (5 sets)
- 13). Wimbledon 2015 (Final) = Djokovic (4 sets)
- 14). US Open 2015 (Final) = Djokovic (4 sets)
- 15). Australian Open 2016 (Semi Final) = Djokovic (4 sets)

AUSTRALIAN OPEN = Djokovic 3-1 Federer
FRENCH OPEN = Djokovic 1-1 Federer
WIMBLEDON = Djokovic 2-1 Federer
US OPEN = Djokovic 3-3 Federer
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Post by K »

Thanks for the list, Jezza. The Djokovic French Open victory over Nadal is kind of amazing. Of course, no one has won a French Open title beating Nadal en route.
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Post by K »

We'll need to update again in a couple of days.
Rafa and The Djoker demolished their SF opponents to set up what will be an eagerly awaited final.
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