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Neil Appleby wrote:I can't believe that Collingwood would be looking at losing its only experienced, big-bodied defender (Nathan Brown) and trading another in Jack Frost. What do we get in return? Lachie Keeffe? Perhaps, but he hasn't played in two years and his decision making was suspect in my opinion. This leads me to suspect Collingwood has something in mind. I hope we have something in mind that is being kept under wraps. Surely we do?
I've come around on this. You don't actually need big bodied defenders. Swans, easily the best defense in the league, have none (Alir and Alex Johnson tallest at 193 and 194cm, but they're not "big"). Hawks have one in Frawley. Even up forward the Hawks have Roughead and no one else worth mentioning. The Swans have Franklin up forward but he's not a good contested mark. And look what they've done with Tippett: playing mostly ruck when he's their best contested mark and a very good forward. A clear pointer that contested marking has lost much of its value.
I've been a big defender of Cloke and Brown and have felt they are critical to our team. I've changed my mind. The game is very different now. Movement and mobility are key all over the ground and the really big bodied players are now optional.
Why such an interest in Mayne who is basically a tackling defensive half forward who may pinch a goal or two? We already have one of those.
Greenwood is just as defensive, if not more so, younger, stronger and has kicked goals when forward this year,
In fact, i think he has kicked more goals than Blair, although that wouldn't be hard.
Save the money and list position and go after someone better.
The added benefit of this would be that Greenwood would then not be part of the midfield group where he tends to butcher the ball, more often than not.
magpieazza wrote:I too am a believer of the high pressure/team defense game, run up run back run up run back and so on.
If you like to watch teams who play for eachother, have cohesion and high press please have a look at Liverpool, English premier league, this season, they will win it or go at least top four.
Jurgen Klopp has molded his team into a team of gut busting runners who follow an established game plan. He has world class strikers who sit on the bench if they dont do the team thing.
He also is a great communicator and players play for him.....alot of love and strong bonds made in a short amount of time. (Luke Beveridge comes to mind). Maybe Bux has got strong bonds, IDK Im not privy to that.
Apart from bonds and love etc, Im afraid we need to have a team of mobile endurance runners to start with as a platform. Perhaps medium forwards that can take a grab and can run all day ( Ben Lennon? ) could become valuable players.
The one thing that frustrates me about Cloke is that he can run all day and he can take a grab, but somehow it hasn't clicked for him, whereby once he was as influential as they came. I still believe he is worth more than a third round pick. If he goes to the dogs Beveridge may turn him around and what a bargain pick up that will be to our direct competitor.
That Cloke can run all day is a historical statement just as Peter McKenna can kick a lot of goals. It was once true but it's not true now.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the only game this year that Cloke was able to take strong marks against GWS? Wasn't that the game that he wore the apparently too sticky glove, and once the glove was eliminated so was his strong marking?
Neil Appleby wrote:I can't believe that Collingwood would be looking at losing its only experienced, big-bodied defender (Nathan Brown) and trading another in Jack Frost. What do we get in return? Lachie Keeffe? Perhaps, but he hasn't played in two years and his decision making was suspect in my opinion. This leads me to suspect Collingwood has something in mind. I hope we have something in mind that is being kept under wraps. Surely we do?
I've come around on this. You don't actually need big bodied defenders. Swans, easily the best defense in the league, have none (Alir and Alex Johnson tallest at 193 and 194cm, but they're not "big"). Hawks have one in Frawley. Even up forward the Hawks have Roughead and no one else worth mentioning. The Swans have Franklin up forward but he's not a good contested mark. And look what they've done with Tippett: playing mostly ruck when he's their best contested mark and a very good forward. A clear pointer that contested marking has lost much of its value.
I've been a big defender of Cloke and Brown and have felt they are critical to our team. I've changed my mind. The game is very different now. Movement and mobility are key all over the ground and the really big bodied players are now optional.
I'm with inky.
I might add, this doesn't bode well for Cox.
There is a reason we lost to Richmond. Having Cox and Cloke go up against a running defence was that reason.
Great discussion. I think Inkling has summed it up with great accuracy: big -bodied contested marking is not obsolete, it is one skill set. No particular skill set is required, ...you just need a skill set within your team that can be incorporated into a game plan of maximum mobility and team pressure. Within the framework of mobility and team defensive pressure, you fashion the details of your specific game plan in accordance with the dominant characteristics of your skill set.
In one way, this analysis bodes well for us. We have the capacity for maniacal, fantastic team pressure, the equal of the elite. We demonstrated that on several occasions in the recent season. However, it appears to me that we have not developed the essential skill set about which the rest revolves. The Bulldogs for example have incorporated a skill set of team wide, astonishing handball into their game. Combined with their ferocious pressure on the contested ball at ground level, this becomes a very powerful combination. GWS likewise uses handball massively with elite running across their team. The Swans appear to use massive midfield ferocity and pressure, with an elite defence that intercepts brilliantly and rebounds rapidly through their midfield. Franklin's role as a highly mobile forward with incredible skills and tackling pressure has also been illuminating.
As for Mason Cox, this does not augur well. He is highly immobile. He would have to develop his marking to a fantastic level to compensate, if this is possible. Travis Cloke has elite aerobic capacity. There is no doubt that he would have the physical capabilities required for the new age of maximal mobility. That is clearly why Luke Bevridge is interested in him.
magpieazza wrote:I too am a believer of the high pressure/team defense game, run up run back run up run back and so on.
If you like to watch teams who play for eachother, have cohesion and high press please have a look at Liverpool, English premier league, this season, they will win it or go at least top four.
Jurgen Klopp has molded his team into a team of gut busting runners who follow an established game plan. He has world class strikers who sit on the bench if they dont do the team thing.
He also is a great communicator and players play for him.....alot of love and strong bonds made in a short amount of time. (Luke Beveridge comes to mind). Maybe Bux has got strong bonds, IDK Im not privy to that.
Apart from bonds and love etc, Im afraid we need to have a team of mobile endurance runners to start with as a platform. Perhaps medium forwards that can take a grab and can run all day ( Ben Lennon? ) could become valuable players.
The one thing that frustrates me about Cloke is that he can run all day and he can take a grab, but somehow it hasn't clicked for him, whereby once he was as influential as they came. I still believe he is worth more than a third round pick. If he goes to the dogs Beveridge may turn him around and what a bargain pick up that will be to our direct competitor.
That Cloke can run all day is a historical statement just as Peter McKenna can kick a lot of goals. It was once true but it's not true now.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the only game this year that Cloke was able to take strong marks against GWS? Wasn't that the game that he wore the apparently too sticky glove, and once the glove was eliminated so was his strong marking?
I have to say that Clokes' running ability is not in question, without looking at direct gps numbers, he runs the pants off all key position defenders, as stated by various media scribes.
His marking has dropped off admittedly but you don't lose that sort of talent overnight, for Clokey its a confidence thing and it would not surprise me at all if he started clunking them again.
There were two absolute guns in this final series who may well be the
prototype for future mids ---fast ,strong and smart and are a good size
but play small or big
Dangerfield and Bontempelli and on Sunday Leigh Mathews was asked if
he hadto build a side from scratch who would he pick first and he said
The Bont
Absolutely pissed when the doggies grabbed him at 4 in the draft. Reckon DH would have dropped his jaw to the floor if the Bont was still available at 5.
