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RudeBoy wrote:
The modern game is all about the team structure. Rather than relying on individual performances, players have to play their role, so that the team functions the best. That's partly why the Roos sacked Boomer - despite his terrific 2016 stats - because his lack of defensive forward pressure, was seen as damaging to the team's overall performance. The year after Buddy Franklin left the Hawks, they won the flag. Arguably the Hawks forward set up was better without Buddy - despite Buddy being a freak of a footballer. So all I'm saying is that a player's individual stats don't always reveal their impact on the team's overall performances. FWIW, I thought we looked our best this year when we had Moore and White (and a couple of times with Cox as well) as our tall forwards.
I appreciate all that Rudey, just responding to the suggestion that Cloke Has been in decline since 2014. 2014 was incidentally the year there were rumors of Cloke struggling with knee tendinitis.
I think there was enormous variation in how our F50 performed irrespective of who played. Our best forward this year was Fasolo.
Fair enough JC. Actually I reckon he had injury problems in both 2014 and 2015. This year he seemed to be injury free, but had lost the level of intensity required of his role.
Had a dirty preseason, little or no impact in NAB games and that flowed into the Swans game but I think there was an improved impact in the Tigers game and he was good in the Saints and Dees games given the team got flogged. Couldn't understand why he was dropped following that. His issue this year has been consistency but I wonder how much of that is linked to team performances. As others have said, it's not unusual for players of his ilk and style to wain prematurely but I think his best still offers something.
In an ideal world we'd have a 24-25 year old taking the No1 KPF role allowing Cloke and Moore to take on lesser roles but realistically we would have had to draft them in 2009, 10 or 11 and we traded out of the 1st round where your likely to find that prospect and have tried to manufacture 1 out of players like Gault.
You should try it sometime! No really! It sure helps when your watching other teams play finals!
Right now my prickle arsed footy hating bandwagon bulldog 'supporter' hubby is slowly decorating my black and white fortress with red white and bloody blue! If I don't laugh, I'll kill him
When the swans kick the Dishlickers ass, you can have fun taking down all the blue stuff, and leaving just the red and white, that will really piss him off.
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb.
5 from the wing on debut wrote:Sorry to put you to the trouble of sourcing those stats. But I was referring to the decline, not whether he was the best key forward. My opinion is not based upon an analysis of statistics. It is based upon the way I perceived that Cloke was actually playing the game. That is, he wasn't moving and playing in the manner that he used to.
I'm continually drawn to the performance of the midfield as a key predictor of F50 and D50 performances. I think the functionality of both suffered significantly at times this season because we got smashed in the midfield. I think if we'd had a 2012 level performance or better this season and there was still the same inconsistency in Cloke's form then I think you could assume decline.
5 from the wing on debut wrote:Sorry to put you to the trouble of sourcing those stats. But I was referring to the decline, not whether he was the best key forward. My opinion is not based upon an analysis of statistics. It is based upon the way I perceived that Cloke was actually playing the game. That is, he wasn't moving and playing in the manner that he used to.
I'm continually drawn to the performance of the midfield as a key predictor of F50 and D50 performances. I think the functionality of both suffered significantly at times this season because we got smashed in the midfield. I think if we'd had a 2012 level performance or better this season and there was still the same inconsistency in Cloke's form then I think you could assume decline.
It's all opinion at the moment but a few questions will be answered if he does go to the Dogs next season. It won't give an answer to when the decline commenced though.
Who cares where he goes, he won't be with us next season and that's all that matters. You might see a slight improvement to his game wherever he goes but it will be short lived and his goal kicking woes won't improve nor will his ability to take contested grabs like he did 5-6 yrs ago. He's been given every opportunity possible to improve but for whatever reason, can't or won't. Time to move on people.
WarrenerraW wrote:Who cares where he goes, he won't be with us next season and that's all that matters. You might see a slight improvement to his game wherever he goes but it will be short lived and his goal kicking woes won't improve nor will his ability to take contested grabs like he did 5-6 yrs ago. He's been given every opportunity possible to improve but for whatever reason, can't or won't. Time to move on people.
HAMMER NAIL, HEAD, BANG.
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb.
WarrenerraW wrote:Who cares where he goes, he won't be with us next season and that's all that matters. You might see a slight improvement to his game wherever he goes but it will be short lived and his goal kicking woes won't improve nor will his ability to take contested grabs like he did 5-6 yrs ago. He's been given every opportunity possible to improve but for whatever reason, can't or won't. Time to move on people.
not sure that he has been given every opportunity to improve...that is simply your opinion. His performance is a function of midfield pressure and for alot of this year, we didn't have any( for the entire first half of the season.) Yet Cloke was singled out as the "weak link". Then humiliated when denied an Anzac Day game, which would have been a real opportunity to play himself into form, given the midfield ascendancy we were able to establish. In my opinion, the "opportunity to improve" was not provided.
WarrenerraW wrote:Who cares where he goes, he won't be with us next season and that's all that matters. You might see a slight improvement to his game wherever he goes but it will be short lived and his goal kicking woes won't improve nor will his ability to take contested grabs like he did 5-6 yrs ago. He's been given every opportunity possible to improve but for whatever reason, can't or won't. Time to move on people.
not sure that he has been given every opportunity to improve...that is simply your opinion. His performance is a function of midfield pressure and for alot of this year, we didn't have any( for the entire first half of the season.) Yet Cloke was singled out as the "weak link". Then humiliated when denied an Anzac Day game, which would have been a real opportunity to play himself into form, given the midfield ascendancy we were able to establish. In my opinion, the "opportunity to improve" was not provided.
Bang bang
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
WarrenerraW wrote:Who cares where he goes, he won't be with us next season and that's all that matters. You might see a slight improvement to his game wherever he goes but it will be short lived and his goal kicking woes won't improve nor will his ability to take contested grabs like he did 5-6 yrs ago. He's been given every opportunity possible to improve but for whatever reason, can't or won't. Time to move on people.
not sure that he has been given every opportunity to improve...that is simply your opinion. His performance is a function of midfield pressure and for alot of this year, we didn't have any( for the entire first half of the season.) Yet Cloke was singled out as the "weak link". Then humiliated when denied an Anzac Day game, which would have been a real opportunity to play himself into form, given the midfield ascendancy we were able to establish. In my opinion, the "opportunity to improve" was not provided.
Bang bang
Warrenwarra is spot on. Cloke will not get any better, in fact he is likely to get worse given the history of the bodies of key forwards breaking down. He has not been mismanaged, in fact he was given opportunities (for more than 18 months) that many other players wouldn't have been afforded.
This thread is irrelevant, he won't be playing with us anymore, which in my opinion is the best for us as a team and we need to be focused on players that are going to impact on our 2017 season.
As per before, I will put on the record that the Cloke of debut to mid 2014 would have been an all time AFL great if his goal kicking was better. He hasn't reached those heights for 2 1/2 seasons and won't go close to reaching them again. He is likely to play VFL for long stints in 2017 wherever he ends going, which by all reports is the Dogs.
By "mid 2014", Cloke had kicked 18 goals in 11 matches.
By mid-2015, he'd kicked 31 goals in 11 matches.
Moreover, if you have a look at his last 11 matches in 2014 and first 11 matches in 2015, you'll see that he kicked 60 goals in 22 games (at 2.73 goals per game). Given that the team, as a whole, was nowhere near as good in 2014 and 2015 as it was in 2011, it strikes me as surprising, to say the least, that his goal-kicking in that part of his "poor" period was almost exactly as productive as it was in 2011 (69 goals from 25 games at 2.76 per game).
By "mid 2014", Cloke had kicked 18 goals in 11 matches.
By mid-2015, he'd kicked 31 goals in 11 matches.
Moreover, if you have a look at his last 11 matches in 2014 and first 11 matches in 2015, you'll see that he kicked 60 goals in 22 games (at 2.73 goals per game). Given that the team, as a whole, was nowhere near as good in 2014 and 2015 as it was in 2011, it strikes me as surprising, to say the least, that his goal-kicking in that part of his "poor" period was almost exactly as productive as it was in 2011 (69 goals from 25 games at 2.76 per game).
Sigh.
Our coach said his form slump had been evident for 18 months in early 2016.
Robert Walls indicated that he had thought he has been done for 2 years. David King concurred. Jason Dunstall said we should trade him at the end of 2015.
You are entitled to your opinion Pies4Shaw, but I don't agree and I'm not going to no matter how many stats you post.
I respect you sticking up for him, but in the end he decided to take his bat and ball and go home, rather than fight for his spot in the best 22. I am actually grateful for this, as he is giving us opportunity to get something for him.
By "mid 2014", Cloke had kicked 18 goals in 11 matches.
By mid-2015, he'd kicked 31 goals in 11 matches.
Moreover, if you have a look at his last 11 matches in 2014 and first 11 matches in 2015, you'll see that he kicked 60 goals in 22 games (at 2.73 goals per game). Given that the team, as a whole, was nowhere near as good in 2014 and 2015 as it was in 2011, it strikes me as surprising, to say the least, that his goal-kicking in that part of his "poor" period was almost exactly as productive as it was in 2011 (69 goals from 25 games at 2.76 per game).
Sigh.
Our coach said his form slump had been evident for 18 months in early 2016.
Robert Walls indicated that he had thought he has been done for 2 years. David King concurred. Jason Dunstall said we should trade him at the end of 2015.
You are entitled to your opinion Pies4Shaw, but I don't agree and I'm not going to no matter how many stats you post.
I respect you sticking up for him, but in the end he decided to take his bat and ball and go home, rather than fight for his spot in the best 22. I am actually grateful for this, as he is giving us opportunity to get something for him.
Typical Bux apologist.
Throw any player under the bus for the sake of making Bux look good.
Lot of players of late being thrown under the bus.
A Power forward comes along every 20 or so years but poor old Bux can't relate to them.
Keep going on your Bux is great crusade and Cloke is crap.
It is rather comical
we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest.
By "mid 2014", Cloke had kicked 18 goals in 11 matches.
By mid-2015, he'd kicked 31 goals in 11 matches.
Moreover, if you have a look at his last 11 matches in 2014 and first 11 matches in 2015, you'll see that he kicked 60 goals in 22 games (at 2.73 goals per game). Given that the team, as a whole, was nowhere near as good in 2014 and 2015 as it was in 2011, it strikes me as surprising, to say the least, that his goal-kicking in that part of his "poor" period was almost exactly as productive as it was in 2011 (69 goals from 25 games at 2.76 per game).
Sigh.
Our coach said his form slump had been evident for 18 months in early 2016.
Robert Walls indicated that he had thought he has been done for 2 years. David King concurred. Jason Dunstall said we should trade him at the end of 2015.
You are entitled to your opinion Pies4Shaw, but I don't agree and I'm not going to no matter how many stats you post.
I respect you sticking up for him, but in the end he decided to take his bat and ball and go home, rather than fight for his spot in the best 22. I am actually grateful for this, as he is giving us opportunity to get something for him.
Typical Bux apologist.
Throw any player under the bus for the sake of making Bux look good.
Lot of players of late being thrown under the bus.
A Power forward comes along every 20 or so years but poor old Bux can't relate to them.
Keep going on your Bux is great crusade and Cloke is crap.
It is rather comical
thompsoc, I have made it clear that I am not a Buckley apologist. I have made it clear how highly I rated Cloke.
I call it as I see it and as many other posters in this thread have noted we noticed Cloke's decline before a lot of people.
Did you not learn your lesson from the other thread?
thompsoc, I also suggest that you read the U18 All Star Game thread. I made observations regarding Josh Daicos and Callum Brown watching them in this game. Despite sarcasm from other posters and comments like I rate them higher than others, I stuck to my guns.
They both ended up in the best players for their respective teams, so as I said I call it as I see it and I am doing the same with Cloke.
