Terror attacks by Islamist groups

Nick's current affairs & general discussion about anything that's not sport.
Voice your opinion on stories of interest to all at Nick's.

Moderator: bbmods

Post Reply
User avatar
Mugwump
Posts: 8787
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: Between London and Melbourne

Post by Mugwump »

stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
Dave The Man wrote: So make Islam/Muslim a Illegal Religion?
No, that would never work and it is against the traditions of religious tolerance inside our society.

The policy we need is a reasonably simple one : be tolerant, kind and welcoming of the Muslim citizens in our societies now, as that cannot be reversed, but deal with any sympathy for jihadism very severely. At the same time, future immigration from Islamic countries should be very heavily vetted and restricted.

Agree with all of that, but the tolerance level IMHO needs to be dialed back a little. Where religious custom or Sharia law conflicts with the law of the land, the law of the land should unequivocally win.

We want migrants to assimilate and integrate into society, not to just transfer their culture to a different country and expect the majority to pander to them.
I can go with that, as long as the law of the land is reasonably respectful of ordinary religious liberty. As in many things, Singapore seems to have the model fairly well-calibrated. You are free to worship as you please, but do not politicise your religion beyond the ordinary bounds of civil society and traditional civil laws. If you do so, know that severe consequences will assuredly follow.

Multiculturalism is an entryist strategy by the Anti-western Left. Like most entryism, it takes a sound principle and then enlarges it to the point of subversion. The good principle is that wherever you come from, it is okay (in fact, good) to celebrate and enjoy your food, traditional dress, religious festivals, language etc : the subversive bit is that it is ok to deny or abjure the culture and values of the land and people who have hospitably invited you to share their home and the historic success which they have won through that culture and those values.

The Left does the same thing with the "racism" slur - take the very correct moral principle that it is wrong to discriminate against someone on the basis of their colour or race, and then extend it to suggest that all cultures are equal and equally worthy of respect by us, and that any challenge to this idea is "racism". This slippery elision is responsible for many of the problems we now face.
Two more flags before I die!
User avatar
stui magpie
Posts: 54664
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 10:10 am
Location: In flagrante delicto
Has liked: 74 times
Been liked: 77 times

Post by stui magpie »

^

You threw some words in there I don't know and CBF looking up but I get your gist and agree with it,

We're pretty much on the same page.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
User avatar
mandy
Posts: 5520
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 6:01 pm
Location: Glen Iris

Post by mandy »

I was at that Christmas market in December 2004. Scary and horrific shit.

Very sad.
#TEAMBUCKS
#TEAMEDDIE
#TEAMCOLLINGWOOD
#SIDEBYSIDE
watt price tully
Posts: 20842
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:14 pm

Post by watt price tully »

Mugwump wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Mugwump wrote: No, that would never work and it is against the traditions of religious tolerance inside our society.

The policy we need is a reasonably simple one : be tolerant, kind and welcoming of the Muslim citizens in our societies now, as that cannot be reversed, but deal with any sympathy for jihadism very severely. At the same time, future immigration from Islamic countries should be very heavily vetted and restricted.

Agree with all of that, but the tolerance level IMHO needs to be dialed back a little. Where religious custom or Sharia law conflicts with the law of the land, the law of the land should unequivocally win.

We want migrants to assimilate and integrate into society, not to just transfer their culture to a different country and expect the majority to pander to them.
I can go with that, as long as the law of the land is reasonably respectful of ordinary religious liberty. As in many things, Singapore seems to have the model fairly well-calibrated. You are free to worship as you please, but do not politicise your religion beyond the ordinary bounds of civil society and traditional civil laws. If you do so, know that severe consequences will assuredly follow.

Multiculturalism is an entryist strategy by the Anti-western Left. Like most entryism, it takes a sound principle and then enlarges it to the point of subversion. The good principle is that wherever you come from, it is okay (in fact, good) to celebrate and enjoy your food, traditional dress, religious festivals, language etc : the subversive bit is that it is ok to deny or abjure the culture and values of the land and people who have hospitably invited you to share their home and the historic success which they have won through that culture and those values.

The Left does the same thing with the "racism" slur - take the very correct moral principle that it is wrong to discriminate against someone on the basis of their colour or race, and then extend it to suggest that all cultures are equal and equally worthy of respect by us, and that any challenge to this idea is "racism". This slippery elision is responsible for many of the problems we now face.
The left of course is responsible for islamic fundamentalism, the moral decay of our society and any wrongdoing. Shux for such complex issues such simple solutions.

Is there something about you & the "left" I'm missing? You're an intelligent bloke but this almost reflexive simplistic blaming seems disproportionate to the complex issues of such things as multiculturalism etc. I am generally of the left (but they won't have me) however I won't cop anti pluralistic anti democratic forces either, be they Islamic fundamentalists or or any other nutter groups including anglo saxon types.

Singapore is fine except if you are a unionist, a worker or want to have some form of pluralism in political life. Singapore demands conformity and views workers rights like the Burmese Buddhists tolerate ethnic Rohingyans. One needs to look beyond the veneer of Singaporean economic success & understand how it was developed and how it is being currently maintained (see migrant labour for a start).
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
User avatar
Mugwump
Posts: 8787
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:17 pm
Location: Between London and Melbourne

Post by Mugwump »

^ WPT, Sorry but this will be a long post in reply as the matter is a serious one. TLDR is fair response :-)

I don't think it is "simplistic" to consider that the root causes of so many of the forces breaking down our society and making it more miserable have their roots in the revolution that began in the 1960s and carried through the 1970s and beyond. In fact, I'd say it is quite a complex position to take. I suspect you find it "simplistic" because you disagree with it, and that is of course your right.

It seems to me that we are suffering from the rise of libertinism, both the amoral economic libertinism of the right and the social libertinism (often authoritarian and intolerant) of the Left. These two orthodoxies of our age are manifest in the collapse of the self-supporting family and its replacement by the state, in widespread crime, drug abuse, increasing rates of mental illness, loss of respect for teachers and education, and the rise of terrorism and political violence in our fractured society. From your posts over many years, I suspect your employment puts you on the front line of many of these.

This social and economic libertarianism is quite different from the old (and dare I say it, British) idea of liberty, which Australians inherited. Liberty is a compact of limitations between power and the subject. This compact was built on the basis of a shared set of evolved values and traditions which were consensual enough to underpin the idea of a common law. However, once you degrade and dilute the shared meanings and traditions, common law liberty and consent decays, replaced by fragmented and arrogant individualism which must be checked by authoritarian state-led curbs on free speech and coercion, all plastered over with high state spending. That seems to me where we are now.

If I seem more focused on the Left it is because I think the modern Left is more at the root of this decay than the Right. The libertine/libertarian Right would be relatively easy to tame because its economic libertinism is ultimately subject to government and policy. Moreover it is fundamentally amoral about our society and what it represents, not reflexively opposed to our system of economic and social organisation, and to the authority which sustains it. So I think it is more tractable, and reversible.

The social libertinism of the Left, however, has taken deep roots in our "do what you wanna do" culture, and I think it is more intractable. When the poor in our society were far, far poorer and more insecure than they are today, we did not have the levels of crime and drug abuse, teacher and health worker stress, misogynistic pornography, social immobility, terrorism and sheer ignorance and contempt for our history, laws and culture that prevail now. These things are the products of cultural and moral poverty, not mere economic forces. And I think that has much to do with the hedonistic, me-first society which began in the 1960s, and which has been greatly abetted by the fragmenting and liquefying effect of mass immigration since the 1990s.

The economic libertines certainly played their part in this, but social fragmentation largely results from the capture of education, media and popular entertainment by the Left. I see it in my own children, as they are late teens and young adults now. Their starting assumption is that Conservatives and ancient institutions are just a defence of money or moth-eaten brocade, and that the paid actors of the state are the good guys. It takes a lot of work to make them see that there is another point of view, and they are intelligent enough to stretch their minds to admit the possibility ; but their caked-on assumptions are culturally left, and they know that it would be very uncool (not to mention grade-reducing) to suggest that continuity and shared cultural experience matters, or that human beings are not necessarily happiest when subjected to rapid social change.

Youth have always been prone to this, but today the shows they watch and the music they listen to, and the education system they attend, all point them in this direction. The intellectual case for Conservatism (and any intelligent person knows that there is one, just as there is for the political Left) - that case is left unmade.

I should add that I am thinking of the so-called "new Left", which has always had as its starting premise that the familiar and trusted and solid must be inferior to the foreign, alien and subversive. The roots of this tendency are interesting, but I suspect it arises from the natural self-aggrandisement of intellectuals, whose dearest wish is to stand above their own herd. In our age, only self-ascribed victim status trumps this position for moralising, self-affirming glow.

The old Left, built upon non-Communist manufacturing trade unions, made a far more positive contribution to social progress and happiness for many years. However, these unions are no longer significant actors in modern society, and they too lost their way as they became modern corporations, lost their old community and Methodist roots, and then retreated to the public and monopoly sectors, away from the discipline of competition.

I do not think this is a simplistic position, though I know it is an unpopular and difficult one - easily and frequently caricatured and misrepresented as "reactionary", "authoritarian", "anti-reform", "racist" or just nostalgia for days that never were. If the cultural elites continue to ignore and mock and smear it, however, they will ultimately have to deal with forces that are far nastier than the moderate right, and I think we are beginning to see that. So it would be well to take it slightly seriously.

On another note, I deal with unions in Singapore a lot as we have major plant there. I do not recognise the picture you paint, as they are assertive and responsibly tough. Our workers in Singapore are among the highest-paid plant workers we have in our global business.
Two more flags before I die!
User avatar
Pies4shaw
Posts: 34704
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 pm
Has liked: 67 times
Been liked: 98 times

Post by Pies4shaw »

It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been realeased because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.

But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects".
watt price tully
Posts: 20842
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:14 pm

Post by watt price tully »

Pies4shaw wrote:It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been realeased because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.

But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects".
Here's to you Rick.
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
User avatar
David
Posts: 50564
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 37 times

Post by David »

...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
User avatar
Skids
Posts: 9908
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:46 am
Location: ANZAC day 2019 with Dad.
Has liked: 26 times
Been liked: 33 times

Post by Skids »

Pies4shaw wrote:It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been realeased because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.

But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects".
It may have escaped your attention but ISIS have claimed responsibility.
Don't count the days, make the days count.
User avatar
Pies4shaw
Posts: 34704
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 pm
Has liked: 67 times
Been liked: 98 times

Post by Pies4shaw »

Little escapes my attention.
User avatar
David
Posts: 50564
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 37 times

Post by David »

Skids wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:It may have escaped the attention of the Neo-Nazis but the refugee "suspect" has been realeased because the German police have worked out that he isn't the guy. Apparently, he just happened to be there. The very clever people doing the interrogation are said to have worked this out because the cabin of the truck was full of blood but he didn't have a speck on him.

But don't worry, I'm sure they'll detain another 24 year old Pakistani refugee very soon. Claude Rains is in charge of the investigation - he was just overheard directing his 2IC to "round up the usual suspects".
It may have escaped your attention but ISIS have claimed responsibility.
While they may well be the culprits (or in league with whoever carried out the act), it wouldn't be the first time that such a group claimed responsibility for something they didn't do.
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
User avatar
stui magpie
Posts: 54664
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 10:10 am
Location: In flagrante delicto
Has liked: 74 times
Been liked: 77 times

Post by stui magpie »

So if they didn't actually plan or authorise it they certainly inspired it so they are responsible.

You're fond of pointing to the number of muslims in the world compared to the other religions when talking about the number of terrorist acts.

How many terrorist acts have been committed globally by non=muslims in the last 2 decades?
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
User avatar
swoop42
Posts: 22046
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:27 pm
Location: The 18
Been liked: 3 times

Post by swoop42 »

At the end of the day all I care about are the children.

All children when born are blank canvases and the only difference between the children of Syria and your own is that one group was lucky enough to be born in Australia.

It's a complicated situation I understand but I'm just tired of the political and religious motivations of all involved and just want some good people to stand up and say never again will we allow another genocide like we have witnessed all to often since the end of WWII and take appropriate and quick action.

Christ why didn't the Holocaust teach us anything?
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD!
User avatar
HAL
Posts: 45105
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:10 pm
Been liked: 3 times
Contact:

Post by HAL »

The end of the day all he or she care about are the children is where it's at.
User avatar
stui magpie
Posts: 54664
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 10:10 am
Location: In flagrante delicto
Has liked: 74 times
Been liked: 77 times

Post by stui magpie »

swoop42 wrote:At the end of the day all I care about are the children.

All children when born are blank canvases and the only difference between the children of Syria and your own is that one group was lucky enough to be born in Australia.

It's a complicated situation I understand but I'm just tired of the political and religious motivations of all involved and just want some good people to stand up and say never again will we allow another genocide like we have witnessed all to often since the end of WWII and take appropriate and quick action.

Christ why didn't the Holocaust teach us anything?
It taught most of us something, but ISIS is basically committing genocide on those muslims who don't follow their version of Islam and i daresay they believe the Nazis were soft cocks who didn't go far enough.

I agree all kids are born blank canvasses, but they learn quickly and the culture and environment they grow up in molds and shapes them. Who's the comparative winner of life's lottery, a kid born in a new york ghetto, a kid born in Zimbabwe, a kid born in Syria or a kid born in Indonesia?
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Post Reply