Russian invasion of Ukraine

[pietillidie]

FFS the news is getting worse. This is deranged.

[think positive]

This is futterly ucked, Watching some of this, Putin is a cnut of the highest order

Agree. Everyday people shown huddled together in a subway in Kiev with their kids and pets was like WW2 revisited. All because an aging despot wants one last lunge at grandiosity

Yep. Much as I not a fan of protestors good on the brave Russians doing just that.

[roar]

Just popped on to the World Wide Socialist Web to have a gander at their take on this situation:

"Who in the Lord’s name gave the US the right? A question for Mr. Biden"

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/0 ... s-f23.html

Some interesting points but their comments on the break-up of Yugoslavia are naive and simplistic, at best.

How so?

Which points did you find interesting?

Not mentioning that the aggression coming almost solely from one source, and not mentioning the slaughter carried out by the serb forces during that aggression. It was a brutal land grab and if you look at how much of Bosnia they now control, you would have to say they were successful. It was Kosovo where the roles were reversed and they lost out, and were bombed by the NATO forces.

Their take on the "west" not being blameless and encroaching where it was agreed they wouldn't go is an important point that isn't widely recognised.

[David]

[#26]

Some interesting points but their comments on the break-up of Yugoslavia are naive and simplistic, at best.

How so?

Which points did you find interesting?

Not mentioning that the aggression coming almost solely from one source, and not mentioning the slaughter carried out by the serb forces during that aggression. It was a brutal land grab and if you look at how much of Bosnia they now control, you would have to say they were successful. It was Kosovo where the roles were reversed and they lost out, and were bombed by the NATO forces.

Their take on the "west" not being blameless and encroaching where it was agreed they wouldn't go is an important point that isn't widely recognised.

Cheers. Thanks for elaborating.

[stui magpie]

I don't read Guardian links but it seems they're keeping it as an option, not sure if any pain it would cause Russia is worth it.

https://www.reuters.com/business/financ ... 022-02-24/

Apart from the Human cost which should be what's front of mind, there's a whole lot of entangled economic stuff going on.

Gernany has stopped commissioning of the big gas pipeline which will hurt. Putin will have considered all the sanctions they might throw at him and has clearly decided he can live with them. And then there's China.

Xi is sitting back watching but in the background is clearly supporting Putin. The impact of this conflict has already been the sharemarket has taken a big hit and investors are flocking to China's currency. With China and Crypto currencies, Russia will get by fine without Swift.

[David]

Yeah, I was just reading a couple of discussions about it on Twitter and it seems like there are plenty of alternatives to the Swift system. So maybe even that isn't going to be all that effective.

[stui magpie]

My somewhat pessimistic view is that Putin holds the whip hand. He's basically won.

Sanctions aren't going to make him back down and no one wants to send in ground troops as that would be (in Putin's eyes) a declaration of War against Russia. China would jump straight in on Russia's side and it's on.

Nobody sane wants that, so they all sit back and make noise instead.

[Pies4shaw]

Yeah, I was just reading a couple of discussions about it on Twitter and it seems like there are plenty of alternatives to the Swift system. So maybe even that isn't going to be all that effective.

On the other hand, looking at the degree of vehemence with which Ukrainian authorities call for the measure, one should probably assume it could have a significant impact.

There's always naysayers in relation to any measure - so, eg, a call for an end to the use of Amazonian timber for paper production will be met by a response that identifies the additional use of fossil fuels for transport if supplies are to be sourced from elsewhere.

Fundamentally, if the Ukrainian government thinks Swift matters and is angry about the rest of Europe backing away from the measure, either it's strategically important or the entire Ukrainian administration is stupid and doesn't know what's good for it. Although the second alternative is possible, I don't rush to embrace it.

[Jezza]

Putin attacking on all fronts.

Not that they've always been reliable in the past, but US intelligence is saying Kiev could fall within the next 96 hours.

[stui magpie]

Putin will basically have control of the country by Monday. Then it's down to Diplomacy.

[#26]

Seems pretty lopsided. Why didn't the yanks give the Ukrainians a bunch of patriot missiles to rain down on the Russians?

[CarringbushCigar]

Seems pretty lopsided. Why didn't the yanks give the Ukrainians a bunch of patriot missiles to rain down on the Russians?

They forgot to take them home from Afghanistan.

[pietillidie]

Comrade Rasputin, the government of Myanmar sends its congratulations on the heroic seizure of Chernobyl.

[pietillidie]

Seems pretty lopsided. Why didn't the yanks give the Ukrainians a bunch of patriot missiles to rain down on the Russians?

The UK claims to be helping arm the Ukrainians, at least:

And here's a final line from the BBC's interview with UK Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, who has been defending the level of support the UK is giving to Ukraine.

"I will not trigger a European war. But what I will do is help Ukraine fight in every street with every piece of equipment we can get to them," he says.

Mr Wallace goes on to say that Russia won't stop after Ukraine.

"Putin is not rational. He doesn't believe the Baltic states are really countries. We all have to stand up to him."