Thanks, DonnyDonny wrote:Excellent. Thanks Jezza.
I've enjoyed following the journey of these three players and seeing who will come out on top.
Djokovic (24) - Nadal (22) - Federer (20)
| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | 
D. Kane argues against numbers, claiming Tiger Woods and Senna are the greatest in their sports, with a shout out to Viv Richards.Jezza wrote:Slams are a significant metric, but not the only metric.K wrote:I certainly do not equate "greatest" with "most Grand Slam titles".Jezza wrote:...
I think the GOAT will either be Nadal or Djokovic now. Federer will be #3.
...
There's a modern obsession with raw numbers like that.
...
Some of the metrics to consider would be:
<snip>
Kane:
When can an athlete say ‘I am the greatest?’
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/when-can-a ... 59tt9.html
"But what truly defines, and epitomises greatestness? Pure genius? Improbable longevity? Metronomic consistency? Pick any sport you like: when practised at its true zenith, that constitutes a quest for greatness. That endless, dull-lit and unmapped path perhaps leading to it. The heavyweight slugfest in which one must attempt to attain it. And that maddening, fleeting clutching of it.
...
Late last Sunday evening Nadal stood on Rod Laver Arena and wondered. By this point Nadal was two sets down, and also facing the grim reality of defending three break points on his third service game of the third set.
At that fork in the road, Nadal rightfully should’ve ended up vanquished in the Australian Open men’s final. He should’ve been cooked. The aggregation of no tennis, a serious foot injury and a recent COVID-19 infection should’ve exceeded what was needed to quell Nadal’s prospects of victory in a major championship final, for a record 21st time.
And yet the precise opposite was the outcome, after a most ridiculously improbable tennis match. An exemplification of Nadal’s grit, and the indomitableness of will. Surely no performance could ever outshine Nadal’s own triumph over Roger Federer, 9-7 in the fifth set in the wasting light at SW19 in 2008. Yet 14 years later …
It’s indeed quite probable that in the fullness of time, Djokovic will reap more trophies than anyone. But that achievement, if an actuality, won’t in and of itself render Djokovic the greatest. Not by any measure."
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PyreneesPie
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Those bits you have bolded above K encapsulate it perfectly for me.
Rafa has been involved in some absolutely extraordinary, unforgettable, legendary matches over his career - the win over Roger at Wimbledon mentioned above, the 2012 loss at the AO to Djokovic and this latest magnificent effort, which I keep returning to in my mind over and over again. It was indeed mind-blowing!!
The present big three each have different defining attributes - Rafa with his steel, grit and refusal to give in, Fed with his pure artistry and elegance, Djokovic with his athleticism.
So to me, although an interesting discussion, debating about who is the GOAT does not appeal to me, as they each have their singular, individual defining strengths. Like the author above, I have always thought that using pure statistics and numbers to crown a GOAT in any sport fails to capture the varied circumstances in their careers and the nuances, the wonder and magic of the individual athletes involved.
As a footnote, I get the impression that being assigned the mantle of the "greatest" is not the first concern of either Fed or Rafa, but could well be for Djokovic. This in turn may have something to do with the burden of carrying a whole nation on his back!
I saw this somewhere recently:
If you're ever sad, just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as Marcus Bontempelli.
I loved this perspective! The names of so many other incredible athletes could be substituted for the Bont, including Nadal, Federer and Djokovic. I feel so fortunate to have been able to see them all play. Arguing that one is the greatest is, by default, under-valuing the others I reckon.
Rafa has been involved in some absolutely extraordinary, unforgettable, legendary matches over his career - the win over Roger at Wimbledon mentioned above, the 2012 loss at the AO to Djokovic and this latest magnificent effort, which I keep returning to in my mind over and over again
. It was indeed mind-blowing!! The present big three each have different defining attributes - Rafa with his steel, grit and refusal to give in, Fed with his pure artistry and elegance, Djokovic with his athleticism.
So to me, although an interesting discussion, debating about who is the GOAT does not appeal to me, as they each have their singular, individual defining strengths. Like the author above, I have always thought that using pure statistics and numbers to crown a GOAT in any sport fails to capture the varied circumstances in their careers and the nuances, the wonder and magic of the individual athletes involved.
As a footnote, I get the impression that being assigned the mantle of the "greatest" is not the first concern of either Fed or Rafa, but could well be for Djokovic. This in turn may have something to do with the burden of carrying a whole nation on his back!
I saw this somewhere recently:
If you're ever sad, just remember the world is 4.543 billion years old and you somehow managed to exist at the same time as Marcus Bontempelli.
I loved this perspective! The names of so many other incredible athletes could be substituted for the Bont, including Nadal, Federer and Djokovic. I feel so fortunate to have been able to see them all play. Arguing that one is the greatest is, by default, under-valuing the others I reckon.
Djokovic is within reach of a third. He "only" needs to win the French again.Jezza wrote:Nadal also achieved the double career slam.
This has been achieved by Emerson, Laver and Djokovic.
Yep, Jezza, those are the two I think of. Borg is very underrated in these discussions. Folks don't seem to get the magnitude of what he did.Jezza wrote:...K wrote:...
Good cases can be made for players with half the number of Grand Slams.
...
I think the two obvious ones outside the big 3 would be Laver and Borg.
...
Yep. I'll talk about this more in a later post... Other obvious things to consider: match winning percentage, GS winning percentage, ... (Spoiler: Borg is way in front in both of those.)Jezza wrote:...
Some of the metrics to consider would be:
<snip>.
PPie, that takes me to love of the game versus desire to shore up one's place in history... Again, much to talk about there in a later post...PyreneesPie wrote:...
As a footnote, I get the impression that being assigned the mantle of the "greatest" is not the first concern of either Fed or Rafa, but could well be for Djokovic.
...
"After the foot injury at Roland Garros, I tried to go to Washington to see if the adrenaline of the competition would help. I realized it was impossible to continue with the season. We tried different things to solve the issue and make the pain go away, and I even considered withdrawing from the Australian Open, as nothing seemed to work.
Suddenly, I made a progress and began to train normally, like before the injury. I'm aware that this injury cannot be fixed, and that's why I want to enjoy every moment while I'm on the court competing."
(Nadal, quoted in Tennis World USA. But it sounds like an unreliable quote... Maybe a mash-up, not word for word, of several quotes.)
Media claim the injury is Mueller-Weiss syndrome. Other media point to Nadal's five-set win (3-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4, 7-6) against Ivan Ljubicic in the 2005 Madrid Masters final.
Suddenly, I made a progress and began to train normally, like before the injury. I'm aware that this injury cannot be fixed, and that's why I want to enjoy every moment while I'm on the court competing."
(Nadal, quoted in Tennis World USA. But it sounds like an unreliable quote... Maybe a mash-up, not word for word, of several quotes.)
Media claim the injury is Mueller-Weiss syndrome. Other media point to Nadal's five-set win (3-6, 2-6, 6-3, 6-4, 7-6) against Ivan Ljubicic in the 2005 Madrid Masters final.
Toni Nadal:
"The specialist who saw him in 2005 told us that it would be very difficult for him to do sport at the highest level, but Rafael has been defying that in the best possible way, because he has been able to face up to a difficult situation.
"He looked like he was going to have a short career, but everything has turned out much better than we expected. He will have a solution when he finishes his career, but not while he is playing."
(Eurosport)
"The specialist who saw him in 2005 told us that it would be very difficult for him to do sport at the highest level, but Rafael has been defying that in the best possible way, because he has been able to face up to a difficult situation.
"He looked like he was going to have a short career, but everything has turned out much better than we expected. He will have a solution when he finishes his career, but not while he is playing."
(Eurosport)
"Injuries are nothing new to Nadal. Problems with his knees, feet and ankles have dotted his career. His first few years on the circuit were brutal: a stress fracture in his left ankle in 2004, a foot injury in late 2005 that sidelined him into 2006 and knee injuries in 2007, 2008 and 2009. In his 2011 autobiography "Rafa," he wrote how he had contemplated ditching the sport to play golf instead.
And then came the lengthy layoff after Wimbledon 2012, when he was out for nearly a year and didn't return until the 2013 French Open. He missed the 2014 US Open with a wrist injury, and sat out Wimbledon in 2016 because of a torn tendon in his left wrist. It was around this time he talked of having an "expiration date".
...
The COVID-19-enforced break in mid-2020 allowed Nadal's knees to heel, and he reached the Australian Open quarterfinals in 2021. Despite a back injury, he got himself fit for the clay season, but crashed out of the French Open in the semifinals to Djokovic -- having suffered privately with a recurring foot issue that flared up.
Nadal announced on June 17, 2021, he was pulling out of Wimbledon and the Olympic Games. He said the decision was made after "listening to my body" which needed time to "recuperate."
...
He returned in time for the hard-court season, saying the "issues" with his left foot had seen him rest for 20 days. But after a third-round exit in Washington's Citi Open, he pulled out of the US Open and announced on Aug. 20 the injury would rule him out for the rest of the year.
It was around this time he revealed he'd had the issue since 2005 and that he was taking a self-enforced absence.
...
Then came radio silence, until Sept. 11 when he posted a photo of himself on crutches on Instagram and said he'd been working quietly behind the scenes with his team.
...
And then on Dec. 16 came the first tennis-related post -- a shot of Nadal serving in Abu Dhabi, preparing for the exhibition World Tennis Championship, where he played Shapovalov and Andy Murray. He lost both matches but looked to be back on track.
Only for COVID-19 to stop him.
Nadal tested positive on Dec. 20 and was hit hard, later revealing that he spent four days in bed and was "physically destroyed" for the following three days."
https://www.espn.com.au/tennis/story/_/ ... am-history
And then came the lengthy layoff after Wimbledon 2012, when he was out for nearly a year and didn't return until the 2013 French Open. He missed the 2014 US Open with a wrist injury, and sat out Wimbledon in 2016 because of a torn tendon in his left wrist. It was around this time he talked of having an "expiration date".
...
The COVID-19-enforced break in mid-2020 allowed Nadal's knees to heel, and he reached the Australian Open quarterfinals in 2021. Despite a back injury, he got himself fit for the clay season, but crashed out of the French Open in the semifinals to Djokovic -- having suffered privately with a recurring foot issue that flared up.
Nadal announced on June 17, 2021, he was pulling out of Wimbledon and the Olympic Games. He said the decision was made after "listening to my body" which needed time to "recuperate."
...
He returned in time for the hard-court season, saying the "issues" with his left foot had seen him rest for 20 days. But after a third-round exit in Washington's Citi Open, he pulled out of the US Open and announced on Aug. 20 the injury would rule him out for the rest of the year.
It was around this time he revealed he'd had the issue since 2005 and that he was taking a self-enforced absence.
...
Then came radio silence, until Sept. 11 when he posted a photo of himself on crutches on Instagram and said he'd been working quietly behind the scenes with his team.
...
And then on Dec. 16 came the first tennis-related post -- a shot of Nadal serving in Abu Dhabi, preparing for the exhibition World Tennis Championship, where he played Shapovalov and Andy Murray. He lost both matches but looked to be back on track.
Only for COVID-19 to stop him.
Nadal tested positive on Dec. 20 and was hit hard, later revealing that he spent four days in bed and was "physically destroyed" for the following three days."
https://www.espn.com.au/tennis/story/_/ ... am-history
: