Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board

CarringbushCigar wrote:North were taking him for 3 years - cough cough bullshit!

We have fallen into this deal - is Bucks in Bali already ?

Mugwump wrote:

Pies4shaw wrote:Crocker has twice his talent.

Looking at the highlights reels of the two players, i cant see why you think that. Crocker might be a good player. Mayne has been a good player for years, now.

AN_Inkling wrote:

Mugwump wrote:

Pies4shaw wrote:Crocker has twice his talent.

Looking at the highlights reels of the two players, i cant see why you think that. Crocker might be a good player. Mayne has been a good player for years, now.

Crocker was our worst regular player this season. If we can upgrade the position we definitely should as we'll struggle to make the finals if he has a similar 2017.

This is the problem when we put "potential" over proven performance. Crocker's shown bits of what he can do, but he's still had very few good or decent games. Instead of projecting forward and assuming he'll be a good player, let him prove it first, because at this stage it's not certain how much of an AFL player he'll be and having him as our number 1 medium sized forward should be considered a definite weakness.

AN_Inkling wrote:

RudeBoy wrote:

AN_Inkling wrote: It's difficult to properly develop young players without the right mix of experience around them. With the departures of Swan, Macaffer, Toovey, Cloke, potentially others, I think our experience levels are again falling dangerously low.

Playing kids and only kids will never get you to the finals. Particularly now that the competition is so strong. You need quality experience, but even middling experience of the right type can be important.

Buckley has stated we have to make finals in 2017. I don't think there's much chance of that without adding some experience. The young players will be inconsistent on and off the field, they will suffer more injuries and they need strong leaders around them to reach their potential, something our squad lacks.

We've messed up the transition between squad builds and left the top end of our age range essentially bare by booting out any player who causes any friction. We're starting to build a stronger sense of team, but it's been made more difficult by this mistake or mismanagement. Bringing in experience from other clubs isn't ideal, but it's what we're left with

I'm all in favour bringing in some experience. In fact I think we need a ready made experienced KPP from somewhere. However, what I don't want are hacks or has beens, who do not represent significant upgrades on what we already have. So far, the players mentioned as possible trades, with the exception of Hoskin-Elliott, do not interest me at all. At the end of the day, it's all about quality imo not average age. Remember, we already have a lot of experienced players on our list in Pendles, Goldy, Brown, Sidey, Reid, Blair and Varcoe as well as young guns with a few years already under their belts in Treloar, Adams, Crisp and Grundy.

Mayne's quite a bit better than our best medium (+185cm) forward - Crocker? Looks like we'd keep Howe down back - although Mayne also has the potential to play in defense, so it gives us options.

On 2016 form, Wells is far better than most of our mids and only challenged by Pendles and Sidey for foot skills. He'd be a great get and exactly the type of player we need, provided we're confident of him getting on the park. Maric is a very good backup ruck option, he's mature, strong and known as a quality clubman. He's just what we need as a mostly VFL bound backup to Grundy.

The Mayne signing makes a lot of sense. He's one of the best pressure forwards in the comp and we know Buckley's been lamenting our forward pressure all season. It means we're not forced to play Crocker or Oxley game in and game out. We don't have many mid-sized forwards if Howe is staying down back, so he definitely fills a gap. We need a medium forward more than a small. It also adds some experience and nous to a young and in White's case, dumb, forward line. For me, this line is our greatest weakness and needs strengthening. Mayne is a useful addition and as a strong-bodied medium gives us some flexibility and means that we can sometimes go with one less tall and that players like White will have to earn their spot.

AN_Inkling wrote:

Mugwump wrote:

Pies4shaw wrote:Crocker has twice his talent.

Looking at the highlights reels of the two players, i cant see why you think that. Crocker might be a good player. Mayne has been a good player for years, now.

Crocker was our worst regular player this season. If we can upgrade the position we definitely should as we'll struggle to make the finals if he has a similar 2017.

This is the problem when we put "potential" over proven performance. Crocker's shown bits of what he can do, but he's still had very few good or decent games. Instead of projecting forward and assuming he'll be a good player, let him prove it first, because at this stage it's not certain how much of an AFL player he'll be and having him as our number 1 medium sized forward should be considered a definite weakness.

RudeBoy wrote:

AN_Inkling wrote:

Mugwump wrote: Looking at the highlights reels of the two players, i cant see why you think that. Crocker might be a good player. Mayne has been a good player for years, now.

Crocker was our worst regular player this season. If we can upgrade the position we definitely should as we'll struggle to make the finals if he has a similar 2017.

This is the problem when we put "potential" over proven performance. Crocker's shown bits of what he can do, but he's still had very few good or decent games. Instead of projecting forward and assuming he'll be a good player, let him prove it first, because at this stage it's not certain how much of an AFL player he'll be and having him as our number 1 medium sized forward should be considered a definite weakness.

Give this kid a break. Crocker is a first year player, who was not expected to play any senior football this year, but was thrown in the deep end following the losses of Swan, Elliott and at times Fasolo. He has shown great promise and has got better with each game played imo. After another pre-season he should be ready to take his game to another level next year, and being the former captain of the Oakleigh Chargers, the kid is a consummate professional and has great leadership potential. I'd hate his development to be set back by being replaced by a player like Mayne, who, after all, is an OK player, but has never been a great one.

AN_Inkling wrote:

RudeBoy wrote:

AN_Inkling wrote: Crocker was our worst regular player this season. If we can upgrade the position we definitely should as we'll struggle to make the finals if he has a similar 2017.

This is the problem when we put "potential" over proven performance. Crocker's shown bits of what he can do, but he's still had very few good or decent games. Instead of projecting forward and assuming he'll be a good player, let him prove it first, because at this stage it's not certain how much of an AFL player he'll be and having him as our number 1 medium sized forward should be considered a definite weakness.

Give this kid a break. Crocker is a first year player, who was not expected to play any senior football this year, but was thrown in the deep end following the losses of Swan, Elliott and at times Fasolo. He has shown great promise and has got better with each game played imo. After another pre-season he should be ready to take his game to another level next year, and being the former captain of the Oakleigh Chargers, the kid is a consummate professional and has great leadership potential. I'd hate his development to be set back by being replaced by a player like Mayne, who, after all, is an OK player, but has never been a great one.

The question is: do you want another development year or do you want to play finals?

Our forward line mix is pretty weak, if we can strengthen it we should. And strengthening our weakest role, where we are relying on a second year player who did not much in his first year, is surely the least controversial thing we could do.

Because if the benchmark is: only bring in complete, very good to great players, otherwise play the kids, then the chances of us making finals in 2017 are low. Mayne is very good as a defensive forward, one of the best. We were weak in this area in 2016 and he would clearly make us better. I understand that he's not the most exciting potential signing, but he is one that makes a lot of sense. And it doesn't mean Crocker won't play, just that he won't play when not ready like he did for +90% of his playing time in 2016.

And I'm not being hard on Crocker, just stating the facts. He may well be a good player for us down the track, but in 2016 he was not and there's no surety that he will be in 2017, so relying on him as our number 1 medium forward would be a glaring weakness in our team. Mayne is a much better player at this stage and a sensible signing.

AN_Inkling wrote:Fasolo's a small (181cm) who plays a bit like a medium. He can't win the body on body contests you expect of a medium forward.

If Elliott and Fasolo were both fit, you're right that we'd possibly decide not play a medium forward. We did bring in Howe to address the weakness though and drafted in Crocker, so I think it's clear we want someone with a bit more height in the mix. And none of Elliott, Fasolo or Howe address the lack of forward pressure. Without exaggeration, Mayne is elite in that aspect.

And let's remember we still don't know where Elliott is at with his back. How much footy will he pay next year?

AN_Inkling wrote:
The question is: do you want another development year or do you want to play finals?