Immigration
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010 Location: Ponsford End
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This thread is entering uncharted territory _________________ | 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Moving right away from the topic of Jezza's dick pics, interesting article pro immigration.
Quote: | Last week Australia passed a major milestone with our population reaching 25 million.
But rather than celebrating the prosperity, freedom and quality of life we have delivered for all those lucky souls, we instead had a round of national hand wringing and whinging. The focus of most animus was on Australia’s high rate of immigration and population growth.
Illustration Matt Davidson
Illustration Matt Davidson
Politicians stoking malcontent, shock jocks firing up audiences, their message is simple: if you want to fix traffic congestion, crowded trains, housing affordability, inappropriate development, even African youth gangs, then just pull the handbrake on immigration.
Rarely have the rabble-rousers got it so wrong. |
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/it-s-getting-crowded-around-here-and-that-s-a-good-thing-20180810-p4zwnu.html
There's a lot of proviso's in the article relating to infrastructure planning and delivery, along with the line that it's so far behind because of faulty data modelling. I'm far more cynical and take the view that for politicians (of any flavour) there's far more votes in being seen to fix a problem than there is in being pro active and preventing them. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005 Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Welfare has gone up because we taking more Immgrants _________________ I am Da Man |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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Dave The Man wrote: | Welfare has gone up because we taking more Immgrants |
Actually, most of the immigrants aren't refugees, they're skilled migrants or students who add money to the economy not take welfare _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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stui magpie wrote: | Moving right away from the topic of Jezza's dick pics, interesting article pro immigration.
Quote: | Last week Australia passed a major milestone with our population reaching 25 million.
But rather than celebrating the prosperity, freedom and quality of life we have delivered for all those lucky souls, we instead had a round of national hand wringing and whinging. The focus of most animus was on Australia’s high rate of immigration and population growth.
Illustration Matt Davidson
Illustration Matt Davidson
Politicians stoking malcontent, shock jocks firing up audiences, their message is simple: if you want to fix traffic congestion, crowded trains, housing affordability, inappropriate development, even African youth gangs, then just pull the handbrake on immigration.
Rarely have the rabble-rousers got it so wrong. |
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/it-s-getting-crowded-around-here-and-that-s-a-good-thing-20180810-p4zwnu.html
There's a lot of proviso's in the article relating to infrastructure planning and delivery, along with the line that it's so far behind because of faulty data modelling. I'm far more cynical and take the view that for politicians (of any flavour) there's far more votes in being seen to fix a problem than there is in being pro active and preventing them. |
It's good to see an article countering the hysteria, even if the author has listed only a fraction of the benefits to keep it simple.
As per the other thread, a comprehensive platform would talk about using the economic benefits not only to fund the future and drive infrastructure planning, as the article does, but also to provide higher minimum wages, facilitate better career pathways, and implement environmental preservation/regeneration through urbanisation.
There are no serious solutions outside increased population density; we're either using forces like demographics and economics to our advantage, and adapting productively to them, or we're becoming their victim. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I see no evidence of “hysteria”, just as there is no evidence of “panic”. This type of overblown language is just used to denigrate honest disagreement.
The question about immigration, which no one seems to answer, is what the right rate and total scale should be, and why. It seems to a religious conviction that we must always have more of it at a very high level. Yet there is littl evidence that mass immigration makes any society on earth appreciably happier, more courteous, or nicer for the assset-poor. It’s even debatable whether it makes that society more open, given the polarization and rancour that seem to have multiplied in its wake.
Everything in economics says that large scale immigration of relatively low-skilled and/or capital-poor people will put upward pressure on housing and public services, and downward pressure on low skilled wages. It is good for the rich and skilled, lousy for the poor. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
OK, but flip that and how does it work?
The majority of our immigration is skilled migrants, not refugees. They add economic value but I'm unconvinced it's enough to counter the effects of population growth. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I’m not at all convinced that Asustralia has been importing anywhere near 350,000 skilled people each year. Most of the immigrants I meet in oz are not doing skilled jobs.
To the extent that they are, one wonders why Australia could not have trained its own citizens to do these jobs when we have graduates working in low paid employment. It is always easier and cheaper to bring in skilled immigrants. I acknowledge this is a different point, but it’s also indicative of a bias toward immigration rather than domestic development.
The best arguments are probably age demographics (which is overplayed, I think, but nonetheless essentially sound), cultural ventilation, and genuinely scarce skills in those industries that we could not have predicted demand (health care doesn’t apply!). But I think the reasons are mostly being found to support the policy, rather than vice-Versa.
I’m not at all opposed to immigration, at rates close to 50k or so per annum, whiCh was our historic average until ca 1995. But 350k seems to me very unhealthy, is ocially for the young and the poor. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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I have no data on this, just checking thoughts. My impression is that it's mostly skilled migration, but different people have different definitions of skilled.
Get up to FNQ or Darwin and see all the European chicks behind the bar. Up in Darwin, I had to serve as translator once for an older bloke who wanted a Brandy and the chick behind the jump couldn't understand him. She had NFI even when I said it so I had to scan the bar , find a bottle of Brandy and point it out to her. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Some of those will probably be gap year kids improving their English on temporary visas, and if so, good on them. If they’re permanent migration, it seems odd.
In theory, it should raise the bar, but i’m not sure it works that way In practice. It seems to just promote the creation of an underclass within the uneducated indigenous population. With two of us working and three kids, we always had a once a week house cleaner in the Uk. Over 14 years, we had three Brits and three Poles. The Poles were all hard working and honest. The three Brits were not. The highlight with one British lady was the night we came home unexpectedly early, having left her babysitting the children, to find her and boyfriend smoking joints on the couch and the children running riot. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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The idea that immigration increases the local underclass is considered a 'lump of labour' fallacy; for it to impact significantly there would need to be a systemic shock.
I'm on my phone, but it looks like the immigration intake is roughly 60% skilled, 30% family, and <10% humanitarian, of a total of 150,000-200,000, depending on the year. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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pietillidie wrote: | The idea that immigration increases the local underclass is considered a 'lump of labour' fallacy; for it to impact significantly there would need to be a systemic shock.
I'm on my phone, but it looks like the immigration intake is roughly 60% skilled, 30% family, and <10% humanitarian, of a total of 150,000-200,000, depending on the year. |
I just checked. The official ABS net inward migration number in 2016/17 was 262,000. I saw something a few weeks ago that stated a number around 350,000. It may be that this was gross, not net.
The lump of Labour fallacy is usually considered to relate to unemployment rather than underclass mechanics per se. I am fairly sure it was a fallacy when labour was largely a low-skilled commodity, but it may not be a fallacy when we are considering low skill labour in a modern economy. I do not think that the demand for low skill labour definitely rises with population, at least certainly not in a linear way.
Let’s play it out within the Eu’s especially open borders. Say there is an influx of Eastern Europeans to the Uk, many of them working in restaurants. You will have noticed this ! The theory is that they in turn create new jobs by getting haircuts, buying food that has to be picked from the farms of Kent, etc, etc. That seems logical.
But when the marginal hairdresser that is added or the marginal fruit picker also comes from Albania (as seems to be the case), and they send a portion of the money back home, and the economy seems to have a lot of trouble generating enough demand anyway, the British working class are not getting much of the benefit. Maybe, ultimately, you absorb all of the incomers and then the marginal people that are added are the native working class at the back of the queue... but by then, so much damage has been done to their work ethic that it’s a bit moot.
This does not address the question of why British society has become so degraded that much of its working class considers graft, theft and idleness preferable. That is a subject for cultural speculation rather than economics.
Lest this sound academic to readers here, I suspect Australia has much the same issue on its own terms. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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I don't think there can be much argument against immigration being good for the economy. The problem lies with incompetent governments not investing in infrastructure to match population increase so the average Joe is against further people in an already overcrowded city. There also hasn't been enough done to direct immigration to rural centres.
Of course, if the average punter wasn't so stupid/greedy perhaps the governments would be forced to act responsibly, rather than indulging in circus tricks. _________________ kill for collingwood! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Maybe more places should take a leaf out of Shepparton's book.
Quote: | There’s an estimated 4,500 Iraqis, 1,600 Afghanis, 1,050 Sudanese and 280 Congolese living in the town. In Shepparton close to 5% of the population was born in either India, Afghanistan or Iraq. |
Shep is only 30,000 people, not a bad effort.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/della79/sudan-to-shepparton-one-country-town-shows-how-to-embrace-re?utm_term=.jwpNNZnvg#.dtzxxQevB
Whenever I drive through town on the way up to Toc or back instead of taking the truck bypass, you see all the different nationalities out and about. In a joint that also has a fairly large Indigenous population, as well as Indians and had a lot of Greek and Italian Immigration in the 50's, maybe they're showing the way. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Describe your surroundings. |
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