Tolerating dissent
Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None |
 |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| Wokko wrote: | My philosophy and politics are far more Atlas Shrugged than Mein Kampf. Where I differ from the Libertarian or Objectivist viewpoint is immigration, but only insofar as we live in a welfare state where the population can vote themselves largesse. In the absence of welfare and with a small, minarchist Government I'd be inclined to more open immigration for work or trade but not permanent migration in large enough numbers to dilute the culture of host nations.
I find the notion of a small government, rabidly pro free speech, libertarian nationalist being a fascist so laughable I can't help but poke the idiots who suggest it. |
You’re not “rabidly pro free speech”, though, are you? Like most extreme right authoritarians, you’re rabidly pro the speech of the right wing crazies with whom you identify. So much so that you tend to froth and gibber when people offend you by pointing out the vacuity of your causes. As to which, see, eg, your vituperative abuse directed at me in the Robinson thread.
Still, I’m glad you can make fine distinctions between where your authoritarian nationalism ends and actual authoritarian nationalist extremism begins - the world would be a humourless place without such black comedy. |
|
|
|
 |
roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | It actually raises a different question, about the media in general and whether they are causing problems rather than just reporting on them. |
No question at all, stui; the media definitely makes things worse, and they know full well they are doing it.
_________________
kill for collingwood! |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^
I'm sure that was the plot of a movie once, where a newspaper was not just stirring up trouble but generating it to boost readership and advertising dollars.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
|
| Post subject: Re: Tolerating dissent | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | <split from “Alex Jones” thread – thanks, David for BBMods>
Speech, like all behaviour, does indeed have consequences, but the question is the nature and proportionality of the consequences. Losing your employment is generally too serious a consequence for speech, unless it is manifestly and materially contrary to the interests of your employer and your ability to perform your role. Slating your employer or their product in a public forum, or abusing their significant customers, is a problem. Making patently offensive remarks while working on their business can be a problem. But what you do and say on your own time as a private citizen is your affair, not your employer’s. This principle should apply even when the speech in question is very unpleasant.
Increasingly, in our society, we manage a Soviet-style restriction on freedom of speech, but instead of sending people to the gulag, we publicly shame them via twitter, demand that they apologize on pain of boycott, and strip their employment away. This modern show-trial is a very sinister development, the more so because it is so protean that it’s hard to attack. |
Jeeza FN christ what a whiny whinny ignorant, myopic and hypocritical world view you possess!
For the last 100 or so years the mere allegation that someone had left wing sympathies was enough to have them black-balled, banished, put on trial, thrown in jail their careers destroyed and many driven to suicide. The McCarthy trials, the miners strikes of the 20 and 30's, Menzies dragging the Red and Yellow peril from out under the bed every election etc etc ad-nauseum. The world is learning what a destructive force the Alt Right is and has had enough! Now you 1/2 wit Libertarians (pipe-line to Fascism) want to squeal and stamp your little feet about how God-Damned unfair it is to y'all!
Grow a pair and quit your bitchin! |
|
|
|
|
thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Quote: | | Now you 1/2 wit Libertarians (pipe-line to Fascism) |
Libertarianism as a pipe-line to Fascism. 
It's funny because it's stupid. |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| I think it's the "pick and choose" brand of extreme right "libertarianism" that probably winds up 3.14159. The so-called "libertarians" on here do get twitchy at the possibility that someone might want to proffer a slightly left-of-centre view. The moment anyone does so, the purple-prose comparisons to Venezuela, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc are rolled out. Goodness only knows how they'd respond if an actual socialist posted something. |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: Re: Tolerating dissent | |
|
| 3.14159 wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | <split from “Alex Jones” thread – thanks, David for BBMods>
Speech, like all behaviour, does indeed have consequences, but the question is the nature and proportionality of the consequences. Losing your employment is generally too serious a consequence for speech, unless it is manifestly and materially contrary to the interests of your employer and your ability to perform your role. Slating your employer or their product in a public forum, or abusing their significant customers, is a problem. Making patently offensive remarks while working on their business can be a problem. But what you do and say on your own time as a private citizen is your affair, not your employer’s. This principle should apply even when the speech in question is very unpleasant.
Increasingly, in our society, we manage a Soviet-style restriction on freedom of speech, but instead of sending people to the gulag, we publicly shame them via twitter, demand that they apologize on pain of boycott, and strip their employment away. This modern show-trial is a very sinister development, the more so because it is so protean that it’s hard to attack. |
Jeeza FN christ what a whiny whinny ignorant, myopic and hypocritical world view you possess!
For the last 100 or so years the mere allegation that someone had left wing sympathies was enough to have them black-balled, banished, put on trial, thrown in jail their careers destroyed and many driven to suicide. The McCarthy trials, the miners strikes of the 20 and 30's, Menzies dragging the Red and Yellow peril from out under the bed every election etc etc ad-nauseum. The world is learning what a destructive force the Alt Right is and has had enough! Now you 1/2 wit Libertarians (pipe-line to Fascism) want to squeal and stamp your little feet about how God-Damned unfair it is to y'all!
Grow a pair and quit your bitchin! |
That was quite good from a truck. As someone said recently about your equally weighty contributions in another forum (I think it was the Robinson one), “thank you for sharing.”
One could rebut your views as false or irrelevant on just about every point, but I don’t think facts would do much to alter your world view.
Ps what’s with the weird Texan schtick ?
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | I think it's the "pick and choose" brand of extreme right "libertarianism" that probably winds up 3.14159. The so-called "libertarians" on here do get twitchy at the possibility that someone might want to proffer a slightly left-of-centre view. The moment anyone does so, the purple-prose comparisons to Venezuela, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc are rolled out. Goodness only knows how they'd respond if an actual socialist posted something. |
You overlook the basic problem for your side of politics. The Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact satellites, and Cuba and Venezuela and others actually did try to implement an economically egalitarian, atheist, state-controlled form of economic and political life which reflects the basic socialist ideal. The results teetered between terrifying, tragic or just grimly impoverishing. Organized lying and repression was always the hallmark of their rule, as it must be when you try to impose synthetic, abstract ideas on humans against their nature.
It’s not really possible to argue credibly that there is any line of continuity between Nazism and either libertarianism or ordinary conservatism. Nazism was a revolutionary movement fusing nationalism and socialism. A conservative without foresight, forced to choose at the point of a gun between Nazism and Communism, would probably choose the former as Hindenburg did. But that’s like making a Collingwood supporter choose between Carlton and Richmond.
There is of course a place for socialism in a healthy body politic. As most of us have said, the non-Communist union movement was vital to the creation of a middle class that underlies capitalist stability. It remains a positive force in Northern Europe today. The state can play a vital role in underwriting social insurance and in managing natural monopolies. These things are not debated much here because they are broadly agreed.
Today’s socialists, historically exposed for bad economics, have turned to multiculturalism as a more promising line of attack. So the big issue in our times has become : what does a sense of “home” mean ? What right does a settled population have to choose its way of life, and to prefer its own ways to those who wish to move in to share its prosperity ? Does a better society arise from such choices and from shared values, or from very wide openness and relativism? Which is more likely to produce a Shakespeare, a Bach, a Mishima, a Piaf, an Aristotle, a Melville or a Kung-fu-tse ?
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:08 am; edited 4 times in total |
|
|
|
|
Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | People are just hypocrites in general |
<3 |
|
|
|
|
think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: Re: Tolerating dissent | |
|
Long time no see, hope the missus is well,
Nice truck
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | ^
I'm sure that was the plot of a movie once, where a newspaper was not just stirring up trouble but generating it to boost readership and advertising dollars. |
It was, now I’m trying to think which one!
Trial be media is very real, just ask that west coast player! Don’t know if anyone watches Chicago pd, but the replay this morning a case n point, fake news blowing up people’s lives, the media is disgusting, anything for a buck or a breaking story, even if it’s manufactured.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Nick - Pie Man wrote: | | David wrote: | | People are just hypocrites in general |
<3 |
Smaller than 3?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Yes, Nick is a monogamist at heart. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Yes, Nick is a monogamist at heart. |
But that's only because his basement is only big enough to hold 1 woman captive at a time.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | You’re not “rabidly pro free speech”, though, are you? Like most extreme right authoritarians, you’re rabidly pro the speech of the right wing crazies with whom you identify. So much so that you tend to froth and gibber when people offend you by pointing out the vacuity of your causes. As to which, see, eg, your vituperative abuse directed at me in the Robinson thread.
Still, I’m glad you can make fine distinctions between where your authoritarian nationalism ends and actual authoritarian nationalist extremism begins - the world would be a humourless place without such black comedy. |
You like to make assertions but very rarely back anything up with evidence. Demonstrate how I've said anything in the Tommy Robinson thread that matches with your weak rhetoric. The worst and only thing I said was you were sneering and out of touch and I've seen nothing from you that doesn't confirm that. Your posts in that thread however lead me to think that you doth protest too much.
On your first point, show me progressive leftists being silenced by large corporations or the Government and I'll back their right to their crazy, harmful and moronic speech. Trouble for you is that it's not happening; but you've never really been interested in facts.
Still yet to see you provide examples of my authoritarian nature, Nationalism isn't authoritarian in and of itself, it took the addition of socialism to create that monster. Switzerland is a pretty fiercely nationalist country, disallows most immigration and has one of the highest standards of living and internal freedom in the world.
One more thing I'll add; using uncommonly used words to appear intelligent does nothing but make you appear insecure at best or a snobby arsehole at worst. Try and keep your language readable; you're on an internet forum not an English for pretentious wankers study group. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
