Transgender politics and social issues

[David]

[stui magpie]

Good summary, what you missed is reflecting back to here. You and others just have different ideas on what is up for debate, what isn't and where the line is.

I read an excellent article recently on a young ex Collingwood AFLW player who has identified as non-binary and had their breasts surgically removed. I've never understood non-binary at all, reading that was the closest I've come as it was all from their words.

Here's the article, I'm happy to copy and paste it here if you'll turn a blind eye to the copyright for once, as it is 3 weeks old.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/aflw/former-aflw-player-el-chaston-opens-up-on-lifechanging-breast-removal-surgery-to-find-their-true-self/news-story/597e0adc7e23c033d987e7d108daa2f8

[pietillidie]

[think positive]

[stui magpie]

They were born female, but never felt comfortable, especially as they hit puberty and grew breasts. They don't identify as male, they're just not female.

Here's the article.

[think positive]

Thanks Stu,much appreciated




I’m old, to me this person needs counselling, that’s just my feeling on it, sounds like someone who has suffered some type of abuse,

As for they, etc, it would be great to come up with something, words that don’t already have a meaning, because it just makes no sense

Of course this is just my opinion. Call me old or anything else,

[djh]

I read this forum regularly and have done for many, many years, but I rarely post.

I feel that I need to post to support think positive, as I feel exactly the same way.

I too am old(ish), and simply cannot understand this, and agree that counselling is obviously required, but did presumably happen before such serious surgery.

As for the pronouns of they/their, it simply makes the article nigh on impossible to read. Those pronouns are for multiples so make no sense when referring to one person.

[think positive]

I like the way you worded this, much better than I did but exactly what I meant. Thankyou, cheers

[stui magpie]

I don't get it either, but when reading that article I put myself in the shoes of the parent and how I'd be if my Daughter came to me with that, explained how they felt. It's not about right and wrong, it's just accepting how they feel even if we don't get it.

[David]

I think the thing we need to remember is that there's a wide spectrum of humanity, and not everybody feels the same as you or I might (or even in a way we can necessarily understand). In this case, it seems likely that people have felt this way throughout history, but only now are able to identify as they prefer publicly.

When something is underground like that and then emerges, it's easy to feel like it's something weird or made up or unnecessary. But I do tend to trust that most people know how they feel, and that they will know if they feel deeply affected by their assigned gender over a long period. I also tend to trust that people don't make the decision to undergo surgery lightly (and I'm aware that most people who do come to that decision have gone through extensive counselling beforehand, in any case).

I remember reading about how Bob Katter, back in the late 1980s, famously stated that he didn't believe that there was a single gay person in his electorate. Of course there were then and there are now, but he hadn't personally met anyone from his part of the country who he realised wasn't straight (or, at any rate, who felt comfortable coming out to him – can't possibly imagine why they wouldn't!). As it happened, his own half-brother Carl was gay.

I think we're going through something similar culturally at the moment with transgender and (perhaps to an even greater extent) non-binary identity: older generations in particular are looking at these young people with their they/them pronouns and thinking it's just some crazy fad. But those of us who are sceptical need to keep in mind that we're looking from the outside, and don't necessarily understand what it's like to have these feelings about oneself, and the sense of relief that may come from being able to present oneself to the world in a way that feels natural and authentic. And, indeed, we may never understand. But ultimately it's not our life and not our personal struggle, so the best we can do is respect others' choices and try not to impose our own more traditional and rigid understandings of gender or sexuality on them.

Accepting that some people use and prefer they/them pronouns is a small concession on our part at worst. And we'll get used to it, just as previous generations got used to things that seemed unfamiliar at the time.

[djh]

David, that is a good explanation. Thank you.

You are probably right in that we will get used to it, but at this point it is a struggle.

I have three kids, all adults, and they all seem to get it, so it is obviously the way of the world moving forward.

[What'sinaname]

Anyone under 18 shouldn't be allowed to undergo any kind of surgery or hormone treatment.

[stui magpie]

^

Surgery yes, hormone treatmentyes but only after proper counselling and sign off by a qualified medical practioner. Someone can stop hormone treatment if they change their mind, surgery is much harder to reverse.

In the case in the article above, they were 21 and just had their boobs removed. Everything south of the border is intact.

[think positive]

[pietillidie]

Dave, is that you a few posts up? Been worried about yer; hope all is well.