Indigenous Voice to Parliament

[Culprit]

David, that's my perception and I'd like to be proven wrong.

[David]

A post-mortem on the polling:

https://kevinbonham.blogspot.com/2023/1 ... l.html?m=1

[Magpietothemax]

An alternative post mortem analysis:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... z-o18.html

[Kingsofclutch]

We as humans have a problem, the world we are born into is based on very simple principles that go by such names as dog eat dog, law of the jungle, kill or be killed, and they are all saying the same thing, life is competition based.
There is no escaping it, every lifeform on the planet will take advantage of every other lifeform if it's expedient, what is called cheating in our society is simply an edge in the animal/plant/microbe kingdoms, there is no inherent unfairness it's just the stronger/smarter animal prevailing and evolution rolls on.
Taking countries by force or invading them to steal natural resources is simply who we are at our core, we're animals albeit with big brains, great apes to be more specific and we follow the same rules of life every other animal follows. So the question becomes do you want to be an animal or a human? because being an animal takes no work, it's who we are, but if you want to be a human then you're going to have to fight 3.7 billion years of genetic programming and make fairness, equality and empathy your core values instead of calling those values 'woke' like it's an insult.

[stui magpie]

An alternative post mortem analysis:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... z-o18.html

Great example of how valid data can be used to support a stupid premise.

[Magpietothemax]

We as humans have a problem, the world we are born into is based on very simple principles that go by such names as dog eat dog, law of the jungle, kill or be killed, and they are all saying the same thing, life is competition based.
There is no escaping it, every lifeform on the planet will take advantage of every other lifeform if it's expedient, what is called cheating in our society is simply an edge in the animal/plant/microbe kingdoms, there is no inherent unfairness it's just the stronger/smarter animal prevailing and evolution rolls on.
Taking countries by force or invading them to steal natural resources is simply who we are at our core, we're animals albeit with big brains, great apes to be more specific and we follow the same rules of life every other animal follows. So the question becomes do you want to be an animal or a human? because being an animal takes no work, it's who we are, but if you want to be a human then you're going to have to fight 3.7 billion years of genetic programming and make fairness, equality and empathy your core values instead of calling those values 'woke' like it's an insult.

^ An entirely misanthropic view which has no basis in history nor in science.
History gives countless examples of astonishing sacrifice for the sake of human progress.
The US Civil war in which hundreds of thousands of white men from the north volunteered to abolish slavery and establish the equality of all men. Genuine equality did not eventuate due to the conditions which history then imposed: the nobility of ideals has consistently predated the possiblity of their realisation.
They were motivated by social ideals advanced in the Enlightenment, reflected in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence and in the French Revolution.
Then there was the Russian Revolution and the ensuing War of intervention in which the US, Britain, France, Germany helped to mobilise counterrevolutionary forces to overthrow the Bolshevik government, but were defeated through enormous self sacrifice of a generation who understood that the Russian revolution offered the only possiblity of a better life for their children.
Then there was the Nazi War of Annihilation against the USSR, in which the Nazis were defeated by the incredible self-sacrifice of a nation that understood that all of its social conquests were on the line.
Stealing the resources of other nations, taking other countries is not the "innate nature' of humanity. The Pro-Palestinian demonstrations occurring internationally are a complete refutation of such a hypothesis.
Capitalism is competition based, capitalism and capitalist governments are the source of the "law of the jungle", kill or get killed etc. But the vast majority of the world's population are opposed to these governments, and support the oppressed against the oppressor.
Here is an article about the Green Brigades, the supporter base of the Celtics, who lit up the stadium in a recent game in a Champions League match in Scotland recently with support for the Palestinians against the Israeli and US/EU backed genocide:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... b-o26.html

Social Darwinism, which is what you are elaborating above, is an ideology of imperialism. It is a social product of the ruling elite, but has nothing whatseover to do with the genetic make up of the human race.

[think positive]

I gotta say the reconciliation brought about by this very expensive debacle is a breath of fresh air, lovin the kumbya atmosphere.

[Jezza]

Two weeks on, and they're still counting

AUS = Yes 39.9% (6,238,828) - No 60.1% (9,402,760)

NSW = Yes 41.0% (2,046,520) - No 59.0% (2,945,293)
VIC = Yes 45.7% (1,825,434) - No 54.3% (2,165,262)
QLD = Yes 31.8% (1,003,378] - No 68.2% (2,155,964)
WA = Yes 36.7% (577,810) - No 63.3% (996,884)
SA = Yes 35.8% (415,409) - No 64.2% (745,328]
TAS = Yes 41.0% (151,678) - No 59.0% (218,051)

Bold = majority

https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/Referendum ... -29581.htm

[Kingsofclutch]

^ An entirely misanthropic view which has no basis in history nor in science.
History gives countless examples of astonishing sacrifice for the sake of human progress.
The US Civil war in which hundreds of thousands of white men from the north volunteered to abolish slavery and establish the equality of all men. Genuine equality did not eventuate due to the conditions which history then imposed: the nobility of ideals has consistently predated the possiblity of their realisation.
They were motivated by social ideals advanced in the Enlightenment, reflected in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence and in the French Revolution.
Then there was the Russian Revolution and the ensuing War of intervention in which the US, Britain, France, Germany helped to mobilise counterrevolutionary forces to overthrow the Bolshevik government, but were defeated through enormous self sacrifice of a generation who understood that the Russian revolution offered the only possiblity of a better life for their children.
Then there was the Nazi War of Annihilation against the USSR, in which the Nazis were defeated by the incredible self-sacrifice of a nation that understood that all of its social conquests were on the line.
Stealing the resources of other nations, taking other countries is not the "innate nature' of humanity. The Pro-Palestinian demonstrations occurring internationally are a complete refutation of such a hypothesis.
Capitalism is competition based, capitalism and capitalist governments are the source of the "law of the jungle", kill or get killed etc. But the vast majority of the world's population are opposed to these governments, and support the oppressed against the oppressor.
Here is an article about the Green Brigades, the supporter base of the Celtics, who lit up the stadium in a recent game in a Champions League match in Scotland recently with support for the Palestinians against the Israeli and US/EU backed genocide:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... b-o26.html

Social Darwinism, which is what you are elaborating above, is an ideology of imperialism. It is a social product of the ruling elite, but has nothing whatseover to do with the genetic make up of the human race.

Not just a river in Egypt

[stui magpie]

^

Credit where it's due, it's a pretty damn good air brushing of history with a socialist overlay. Factually it's rubbish of course, but being able to write that without puncturing your cheek with your tongue, kudos.

Mind you, I don't agree with your view either.

[David]

[Pies4shaw]

Queensland, SA and WA shouldn't actually be States, should they?

[David]

I expect there will be (and presumably already has been) much written about WA's near 2-to-1 rejection of this referendum just two years after a more than 2-to-1 2PP vote to Labor in the state election.

Labor people can be pretty reactionary, so there's not necessarily any contradiction there, but it also suggests a large chunk of the population there isn't overly wedded to a right-wing culture war mentality yet also isn't on board with symbolic progressive campaigns. I guess it goes without saying that there's likely to be some big socioeconomic factors at play there.

[Magpietothemax]

^

Credit where it's due, it's a pretty damn good air brushing of history with a socialist overlay. Factually it's rubbish of course, but being able to write that without puncturing your cheek with your tongue, kudos.

You are quick to disparage, but ever so reluctant to provide any explanation or evidence . Please elaborate what actually in the paragraph above is "factually rubbish"

Magpietothemax wrote:
An alternative post mortem analysis:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... z-o18.html


Great example of how valid data can be used to support a stupid premise.

Same as above. Elaborate why you think the premise is stupid.

If you cannot or won't, then your disparaging comments are simply worthless.

[nomadjack]

^

Credit where it's due, it's a pretty damn good air brushing of history with a socialist overlay. Factually it's rubbish of course, but being able to write that without puncturing your cheek with your tongue, kudos.

You are quick to disparage, but ever so reluctant to provide any explanation or evidence . Please elaborate what actually in the paragraph above is "factually rubbish"

Magpietothemax wrote:
An alternative post mortem analysis:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/1 ... z-o18.html


Great example of how valid data can be used to support a stupid premise.

Same as above. Elaborate why you think the premise is stupid.

If you cannot or won't, then your disparaging comments are simply worthless.

I'll have a crack. how do you reconcile the claim below about what motivated 'volunteers' to fight to abolish slavery with the complete bunk you write about us all being completely snowed by the interests and narrative of contemporary capitalism? Talk about selective false consciousness... You can't have it both ways.

"The US Civil war in which hundreds of thousands of white men from the north volunteered to abolish slavery and establish the equality of all men. Genuine equality did not eventuate due to the conditions which history then imposed: the nobility of ideals has consistently predated the possiblity of their realisation.
They were motivated by social ideals advanced in the Enlightenment, reflected in Jefferson's Declaration of Independence and in the French Revolution."